Spirits choosing life lessons

[Fairiedust]

I would appreciate any input on this thread.

Ever since 9/11 something has bothered me about spirits choosing which life lessons they would learn in a life.

In the 9/11 instance I don't understand, especially when you think about the terroritsts. They live their life to terrorize, maim and kill others. They die by suicide (not a good thing) and commit murder along the way. A life filled with hate for others not of their religion, culture, or economic circumstances. What in the world are they learning? How to hate, kill....WHAT?

Waiting to hear your takes.

FD

[Jude]

FairieD, I'm afraid I'm as confused as you about this subject. What about Hitler? Doesn't seem to make sense does it?

Haven't I also read, though, that everything is not set in stone, and that we are able to make changes and choices along the way? Is it possible that they chose that life, then "free will" set in and they diverged from the path?

Nevermind -- I think I'm confusing myself even more.

[frosty]

Originally posted by TXJUDE
Haven't I also read, though, that everything is not set in stone, and that we are able to make changes and choices along the way? Is it possible that they chose that life, then "free will" set in and they diverged from the path?
[/B]

XT that's how I've always thought of it. Although we choose our path most of us have no knowledge of what that path is. It is up to us to find the right path and follow it. Our guides are there to help us find the way. Unfortunately, often when we come to a fork in the road, we don't listen to our guides and choose the wrong path.

So in response to you question Fairie, these terrorists etc. did not choose to live this life BEFORE they got here, but after. They took the wrong turn in the road and are now hopelessly lost. The only hope they have of getting back on the right path is by listening to their guides.

love and kisses

Marg

[Irishrose]

Sometimes I think that people that commit terrible acts 'chose' that life as a lesson for the rest of us. They agreed to be the bad guy just so the rest of us could see what happens when someone does not do what they are supposed to do in their lifetime.

Maybe that is a romantic idea and probably does not seem like a logical method of teaching lessons but consider what each of us have to go through in order to mature in our lifetimes. We have parents that do the best they can - sometimes we have parents that do nothing and we are left to survive on our own. Some of us make it. Some of us do not. Some of us turn away regardless of the lessons we are taught by our parents. Some of us survive to become unbelieveably wonderful people when it would be so easy to follow along the 'bad' path - it is right in front of us. All we have to do is join the bandwagon - it is an easy choice.

Some few years ago I listened to a lady comment on how sad it was that this young mother was dying from cancer. She would be leaving a husband and two small girls under 5. We all agreed that it was a terrible time for all. And then, for some unknown reason, I opened up my big mouth and said that she may have signed up for this end as a lesson for her family. Needless to say I shut them up - and finally one lady got a little angry and delcared that no one signs up for anything that it was curel of me to say such a thing. I did not back down, but did say that it was my belief. And that I did not intend to ruffle any feathers. I did not win any medals that day....

So, in essence, my point is that it is my belief that all things happend for a reason. It would seem to me that absolutely NONE of these reasons are known to us ahead of time. It is my belief that it is part of a plan. Lately it appears that the plan has become an amazing puzzle - scary, confusing and thought provoking to say the least. We will have to see what the big picture looks like over time - but eventually it will all come together.

[AnnieB43]

I agree with Irishrose.
I believe that we all “choose” or “agree to” the life we are living, be it a relatively “good” life or “bad” life.

I feel that the “bad guys” have agreed to be bad guys, and while they are living their life as bad guys, are learning certain lessons that their soul was lacking.
For example, as they rot in prison during a life sentence, they have plenty of time to contemplate.....and learn things like feeling REMORSE, COMPASSION, EMPATHY, and other feelings their soul may have been lacking.
Some of them learn these things as they spend their life in jail, and some of them don’t.

At the same time, the people that the bad guys have affected ( the families of the people they have killed, etc.), are also learning certain lessons.
Take the families that lost loved ones in the Trade Centers......all of these people that were left behind.....had great opportunities to learn lessons. Some of them went on to act as speakers, and help and talk to others about how to handle their overwhelming grief! Many of them will get past the adversity and become better and stronger people! Their strength will in turn motivate and/or help someone else.

Then there may be those families that will never get out from under their grief. Say, a mother overwhelmed by grief over losing a child. Perhaps her husband has lessons to learn..... while it may appear that the mother’s grief and emotional suffering are in vain, it may be her husband who will benefit from HER grief.....by learning how to be COMPASSIONATE, and UNDERSTANDING as she faces adversity.

Everyone’s suffering ultimately will benefit another individual, and help them learn a life’s lesson (while this may sound sick to some people, this is just MHO).

Believe me, I do not mean to reduce pain and suffering to such a simplistic statement.

The hard part for us is that we are not always aware of who around us is learning what lessons.

Ironically, one of my favorite quotes that I have written down and sitting near my computer, is.......

“Man’s main concern (in life) is not to gain pleasure or to avoid pain, but rather to see meaning in his life. That is why man is even ready to SUFFER, on the condition, to be sure, that his suffering has a MEANING.”

I’m sorry, but I do not know where I found the quote, to give credit to the rightful author.

Anne

[Jude]

Originally posted by AnnieB43

The hard part for us is that we are not always aware of who around us is learning what lessons.

Very true. This is a very important statement -- probably an UNDERSTATEMENT.

[Fairiedust]

If as you say, 9-11 was a lesson for those remaining to make them stronger, I really don't want to know ahead of time what is coming. There aren't many things more horrible than what happened that day. What huge catastrophe are we being prepared for? Sheesh...this can really get confusing.

Sorry, guys, it still isn't ringing true for me. I understand what you are saying but it isn't, way down deep working. I do believe there are no coincidences, we make choices, BUT if you make a wrong choice you somehow end up where you are supposed to be anyway. It might just take longer. God's plan is working over all of us. Good things do come from bad, etc. That I can understand, but spirits choosing a life lesson in the form of a Hitler, terrorist, or serial murderer seems pointless in the scheme of things. Malfunctioning equipment or weather could have caused the same tragedy. Why terrorist who passionately enjoy hurting and killing others. A gentle learning spirit chooses to have a sick, sick mind?

I don't want to ruffle feathers or upset anyone with these questions when everything is still so raw in peoples minds. You can't solve a problem unless you understand it. And to understand you need a few clues. I'm trying my hardest to do just that, and am coming up very short. Right now it sounds like a game of darts in heaven. 10 points-terrorists, 31/2 points aborted baby, 7 for a suicide, 5 1/2 for a murderer....now loading at gate #2 in twenty minutes. First one to 100 points wins........................what?

Am I the only clueless person here?

[VTFlowerGirl]

This is the way I have come to "understand" people such as terrorists and others who cause so much pain and suffering for their fellow humans. A third generation psychic medium offered me this explanation of levels of spiritual development.

There are several levels of spirituality, ranging from spiritual "infants" to more advanced "old souls", I think he said seven levels. Depending which level you're at, that's how many guides you have, with the spiritual infants having just one guide, and the old souls having seven. Now as you are born and come back to earth you do not regress from being an old soul to an infant soul, if you learn your lessons in each life you keep progressing to a higher level. BUT it is possible to make mistakes and not listen to your guides and have to work harder to make amends and also advance to the next level.

The infant souls are those people of the criminal element, the unsociable psychopaths, terrorists, etc.... those kind of people who always seem to be causing trouble and wreaking havoc in the lives of others as well as their own lives. They are easy to spot. Since they only have one guide they have limited resources to assist them with their life lessons they are more prone to the negative energies acting upon them, and in turn create negative energy too through their interactions with others. The only hope for them is that they eventually learn what lessons they can in this lifetime so they can advance.

Have you ever noticed how some children seem to have wisdom beyond their years? And how it's very easy to tell if someone is spiritually advanced ("good people") within a few minutes?

I can't remember everything he told me but I"m sure to run into him again soon so will ask him to explain again. I feel that our guides help protect us from those whose only intention is to cause us harm, but that God is really the only one with the master plan and we're all here to learn lessons from it all - whether it be self-preservation, compassion, forgiveness. One can attempt to educate those infant souls, but it's more likely that those people are not going to change their actions. You can only change your reaction to them, and learn your own lessons from those interactions.

It made sense to me at the time I heard it and still makes sense to me today.

[Pam]

I think the Jewish holocaust was much worse - many more lives murdered, more children, and those souls were forced into demeaning slavery and torture first, over a longer period of time.

There's another theory that says there's only so much "good" energy in existance, and that it is balanced by "bad" energy, and vice versa. This is Yin and Yang. Having human egos, we don't want to accept that the "bad" energy is a natural part of existance.

One man's tradgedy is another's triumph. It's Man who walks through life assigning labels to people, things and events as to whether they are good or evil. It's possible those things are neither good or bad, they just are what they are - they just simply exist. We have to use judgmentalism when we do that. Judgmentalism isn't a desirable skill for soul growth ;)

It's been said by some that September 11 was a release of negative energy into the world, that can only be followed by a balancing flow of positive energy. One can only hope so. I suppose the best one can do, when choosing to incarnate is have the intent to be part of the positive energy flow. If we're here to learn lessons, then there's much to be learned by making mistakes (jumping into the negative energy) as well as earning triumphs.

I don't know if I can completely buy into this point of view, but it's the one that makes the most sense to me so far. But whenever I share it in discussion groups, it's usually followed by some vehment posts about how certain "evil" events just cannot be accepted as "supposed to be." But I can, because I remember John's analogy of our loved ones on the Other Side, looking back at us in our sorrow and pain, as if we are small children with broken dolls. They feel for us, but they know our pain here is but momentary, compared with the larger picture of space and time.

[hjemsted]

I think life is just a stage play and as a play we all agree to act different roles. The best of friends can become bitter enemies on stage only because the script calls for it. When their parts have finished they again become the best of friends.

As we all come from the other side (our real home), coming to this world is just stepping out of the wings on to the stage and playing our part in the play of life. The film of Hannibal Lector as an evil man, doesn't show the real person who is hidden inside. The soul is Anthony Hopkins, a man who is the opposite of the evil person he portrays.

For there to be good, there has to be evil. For the soul to learn, it has to experience all, good and bad. I don't think we can all be good here on earth. If we were there wouldn't be any reason to leave the other side. There wouldn't be anything to learn. Introduce evil and it's varying degrees and the stage is set for a performance.

We all know that when this life is over we return home and become our true selves, eventualy. Like any great actor who is immersed in a role, you don't leave all your feelings behind you. That's probably why we have to sometimes work through issues when we cross over. It's a brave soul I believe who agrees to take on the role of evil, not only do they suffer when they eventualy return to the other side but they give us the opportunity, here on earth, to learn.

These are only my views on life and the reasons why we're here. It still hurts and saddens me though when people suffer through evil acts even though I feel I understand why.

Hjemsted :)

[scrambled6]

There are some wonderful replies here......

Evolution. Our souls evolution. That's what I believe this is all about. All the tragedies, horrors, disasters that have happened since day one is something that had to take place here on this earth school for us to evolve spiritually, religiously, emotionally and so on. Though it was not and is not pleasant, it had to happen. Hard to understand for some, for others, not so hard. IMO, 9/11, the wars, the holocaust are a reminder for some, basically saying "focus, learn, don't forget the bigger picture.......the Divine Power, God.....remember?...now make good of it".

Since 9/11, the postive flow is back on track and may be the strongest is has ever been for us as a whole, for now atleast. All is one. Of course the sorrow, the pain and the suffering of the people who passed, will always be imprinted in our minds......it's those pictures that remind us and keep us one step closer to the Divine Power....at least for me it is.

On this earth school, out of all the negative that happens, the positive seems to over power everything in the end....and what is the positive?.........us, all, one.

It is unconceivable to us what these people did to others, but that was their job to do and their choice, not ours. Did we evolve as one? I hope so.

[Farmer Kathy]

Interesting thread Fairiedust.

One of the things I have always wondered is how our background, as in childhood, where we were born, etc plays into this. I mean if those men hadn't been following Bin Laden (IMO a modern day Hitler) would they have chosen to kill people anyways? Obviously to most of them they believed that religion said it was alright to do this. If they had been brought up in a different religion would it be different? Perhaps this is where the different paths come in. They chose to follow Bin Laden. Just wondering what you all think.

Kathy

[naomi]

During Holy Week I saw a program about Judas Iscariot. One alternative theory was brought up that I had never heard before. It was that Judas was not so much a vile traitor, but rather a very courageous soul who knew that someone had to betray Jesus in order for history to follow a certain course. Therefore, he volunteered for this ominous task which would make his name and memory a curse. At the Last Supper Jesus said to Judas "Friend, go do what you must do."

[canadianmom]

Pam,
I agree with about the third paragraph of your post, and Scrambled, I also agreed with part of your post.
I've been taught that our role here on earth is kind of like a testing ground for the life thereafter. You know, even after the clean up at ground zero on Thursday (I couldn't hold it together all morning) I still feel this isn't "closure", because there are still people not accounted for, and that bothers me (kind of like a huge "mother hen" wanting all her chicks lined up in a row) I know there is a huge amount of work still to be done, and I know there are still huge holes in people's hearts, and a huge loss of parents of all the kids in NYC and beyond!
As for the terrorists, I believe, because I am a strong believer in the RC faith, they will have to be accountable to God for what they did, when they reach those massive gates. I lift them to God to deal with, and form no opinion of them, beecause I am too hurt by 9-11. My memory of being in those towers will not die, but I will feel a huge loss for them, when I go back.
I had a friend just back from NYC say he couldn't psychologically go down there and see the ceremonial carrying of the last standing beam, so he watched on TV in his hotel. He also mentioned his friend would send him pictures to give me.
I don't want them to gawk at, I wanted them to complete my memories of them, this probably doesn't make any sense, but a lost memory is kind of like 9/11, and IMO, I don't think anyone has any right to take those memories from you!
Terrorism has changed the world again, for the worse this time! We are only now hearing of places like India and Kashmere, "copycatting" what happened in NYC, PA and Washington, and it's getting out of hand. :(

[Jude]

Naomi, thanks for posting that alternate theory.

The name Judas is practically synonomous with traitor. Does cast a different light on the subject, doesn't it?

And, of course, Jesus already knew what he and Peter would do, but still carried out "the plan", according to God's will; he didn't try to change a thing.

hmm... :hmm:

[Irishrose]

I still feel that what happens is part of 'the plan'. Yes, there is a lot of free will that could have changed everything in one direction or another. When we read of the accounts of the terrorists living among us and learning how to fly and the things that were noted by the owners of the businesses it seems to reinforce in my mind that even though free will has a hand none of this was coincidence. It all happens for a reason. It is all very terrible, very hurtful, very insane and at the same time very much a reality. We cannot go back and change any of this or any other horrendous tragedy.

My wonderful and loving grandmother taught us that something good must come out of everything bad or we don't learn from it. I haven't yet figured out what good came from 9/11 other than we as a nation must not be so arrogant as to think that nothing could touch us. And I am not even sure that is it either - just a comment on my part. My husband was very bothered by the last piece of metal being taken down. There are so many souls yet unaccounted for - that is something we must deal with. But God has all of them and that is really all that counts in the end.

These are very tough times, deep concerns and many unanswered questions - food for thought.

[canadianmom]

Irishrose,
Please tell your husband, that I feel the same way...he is defenitely not alone in that feeling.
I totally agree that these terrorists have to be accountable to God in the end. And the thought that God has all these victims, for me is a little reassuring. Thank you so much for the comforting post! :) Although the whole situation still doesn't resinate very well with me. :(

[Farmer Kathy]

For me I really was surprised that so many pulled together to try to help the victims and families. People were turned away at blood drives, how much was donated to the rescue workers, new firetrucks donated from different parts of the country. In a world where it seemed most people only thought of themselves I am very proud of the way America pulled together.

Kathy

[retrokitten]

I agree with the theory that the attacks are part of a larger plan that at this point we don't understand and the agreements made between souls about playing "the bad guy". I also agree that with unspeakable evil one must have unimaginable good. One has to exist so that we can recognize the other when we see or feel it.

One thing that makes that school of thought a little confusing is that it seems to imply that we shouldn't be upset, angry, or grieve simply because we are following God's will for us. We are human and it hurts to lose people we love or to see something so horrifying as the attacks on our country. I didn't lose anybody in the attacks, but I still cry when I see the towers come down on TV or in print, because of the tremendous gaping hole that is now in so many families and in our nation. But, I cry, too, when I think of the lines to donate blood that went on for blocks, or when I remember the picture of all of our military men and women running back into the Pentagon as it burned just because there might be something they could do to help. Or those brave souls who gave the ultimate sacrifice in Pennsylvania to save our nation from further acts of terror. Out of unspeakable evil came unimaginable good.

I don't pretend to know why things happen the way they do or what the big plan is. God gave us so many wonderful gifts and one of them is our intellect, our ablility to ask, "Why?" We should never stop asking why and looking for our own answers. Find out what is true for you. It's not easy. Just reading the prayer threads sometimes is enough to make someone question thier faith. But go ahead and experience the hurt, the pain, the fear and know that God is there. Like a parent who comforts a child who has fallen off of thier bike because they know how badly it hurts, God is there comforting us when something painful happens to us. But like that parent, God knows no matter how bad it hurts this is not the end of our world and there is more out there for us if we can get back on the bike, so to speak.

[canadianmom]

I also wanted to add...
Fairydust, thank you for starting this thread! :)

I was at a local fair this weekend, and Saturday morning, there was a parade, and the fire fighters from all over the city lead the parade. I wore my 9/11 shirt that my mom brought back from Florida after 9/11, (I was in tears when she told me about it on the phone, then went to pick it up at her place) and my FDNY cap that the local fire dept. sold as a fundraiser to send to NYC. I was already to go, got a good seat, and saluted every municipal fire crew in the parade, and you know what? They saluted back! That was a prime example of how much comradeship people still have, and they too feel so much a part of a community, of all fire fighters, even though we're miles apart!

That same thought holds true for the commentator on CNN tonight, after a poem was read by a woman who wrote it in dedication to the people at ground zero, who worked tirelessly for 218+ days. I think it's at cnn.com if you want to read it, if not check "June 3" archives. Aaron Brown (who once worked for KIRO in Seattle) said that NYC feels more of a community now than pre-9/11.

Peace & Blessings,

~Nicole

[frosty]

I can't believe that all of this was a part of God's plan and we are just players in the play of LIFE. God is all good so how could he create evil. God wants nothing more than for us to live in peace and harmony together. We are the ones who create disharmony and evil.

If this was all part of God's plan, as has been stated. then we have no free will and all our problems can be blamed on God. I don't think so. It's time we as a people started to take responsibility for our own actions and stopped blaming God's plan for all that goes wrong in our life.

Sorry if this sounds a bit strong but I have always firmly believed in "free wil"l and without it, life would be meaningless. We would just be puppets on a string. WE make the choices and live with the consequences.

Hope I haven't ruffled any feathers but thanks Fairie for starting this thread. Very thought provoking.

love and kisses

Marg

[PsyQuestor]

God is not the creator of all our earthly experiences. God bestowed us (and the Angels) with free will. What happens because of our good / bad choices is up to us. I believe we were all born to a purpose, I have felt this intensely over my lifetime. It's up to us to stay on a path that will lead us to our ulitimate purpose, but if we don't ...

It's our fault, not His.

This is the truth for me. Yours may differ, but that doesn't make either of them untrue, or any less real.

When I feel out of control, like nothing I can do will make any difference, I PRAY. I pray for understanding, for help and in thanks. When 9/11 happened, I prayed for those souls and their families here, knowing it was the only thing I could do to make a difference.

Just my random thoughts on this difficult subject.

[retrokitten]

No one is blaming God for anything. Practically every post has mentioned man's free will. Every generation has had it's tragedies that lead people to beg God to know why He has allowed evil to touch thier lives. The simple truth is we don't know right now. All we can do is speculate and keep searching for answers.

If man chooses to do something as evil as the holocaust, the OKC bombing, the 9-11 attacks, or plain old murder then why can't God choose to throw some good and comfort into the situation? If it's true that God never gives us more then we can handle, then maybe this is His way of making sure that we don't tip over the edge and to balance things out. There is good in every situation, but we have to choose to see it.

There's no point in using harsh words when talking about this subject. Everyone is going to arrive at thier own conclusions and chances are good that everyone is going to believe they are right. Based on experiences in life my answer is going to be different then Irishrose, and her answer is going to be different then PsyQuestor, and her answer is going to be different then CanadianMom and so on. That doesn't make any of us wrong or bad, just different. There's a line by Bob Dylan in "Tangled Up in Blue" that says, "We always did feel the same/We just saw it from a different point of view" that kind of sums it up for me. So did PsyQuestor:


Originally posted by PsyQuestor


This is the truth for me. Yours may differ, but that doesn't make either of them untrue, or any less real.

[stampinjen]

Unfortunately evil does exist in our world. People "God" all the time. Look at the Salem witch trials. Perhaps the biggest lesson of all for some to learn is that we are here of our own free will, and no matter what religion we decide to follow, God is the Creator of all, no matter what name He is given in any religion, and we should spend our time worshipping Him and connecting with Him as well.

Jenny

[scrambled6]

Originally posted by stampinjen
Unfortunately evil does exist in our world. People "God" all the time. Look at the Salem witch trials. Jenny

Hi Jenny

I'm a little confused on your post. Are you saying the "evil" were the girls/woman in Salem? Or the "evil" were the people who killed them thinking that they were witches? Thanks Cyndy

[Fairiedust]

I do agree that evil is evil, whether it's a little or a lot. But, I'm getting really confused about My God being every others religions God too.

Here's why: Sept.11, brought a smack right between the eyes. Why would the God of the Islamic religion teach that it's not only okay to kill unbelievers, but you will be blessed, and so, my god is nodding to Christians being killed. If I'm sounding confused, it's probably because I am. I've been doing some reading, and I can't explain it any other way. My God who loves me, who happens to also be someone elses God under another name has teachings to do away with me, for the express reason that I am a Christian, a child of Christ.

My eyes are rolling around in my head. I can see this is going to be a bottle of wine week. I'm really not trying to nail any ones toes to the floor. Sorry if I offend anyone.

It's a nice thought that every religion is really united under one God, but ......I'm not going to speculate anymore. It's time to have a talk with the pastor.

FD

[canadianmom]

oh ((((fairydust)))))
I know there are people (in general) out there who applauded the efforts of 9/11, and they were muslim children on TV, and yes, in my RC eyes, that is wrong, but what I still don't get about all of this is; since the Koran preaches love and Alla, why would anyone in there right mind want to carry through with a suicide mission? To get to heaven? In the RC belief, if you commit suicide to die, you go to pergetory, not heaven (at least not right away!)

Since 9/11, in my neck of the woods, people are divided! And for me, that's sad, because it's moving away from the "community feeling" Yes, people have opposing views, and that's healthy, and "ok" but friendships, and communities shouldn't have to suffer because of them, should they?

[Fairiedust]

I believe part of the prize is you go to paradise and you can have 70 virgins. Go figure. Big deal. The paradise part is okay, but you can keep the virgins. So much love is peace was taught, over 5,000 souls left the earth that day. There must be something very fundamentally wrong there.

FD

P.S. After I posted here, I did email my pastor.

I'm afraid mom, that until it happens to you, it's the neighbors' problem. I just saw a program a few weeks ago about how easily immigrants can get into Canada, and you have a huge Muslim population. They didn't even need papers to get in. Wow!!!

[canadianmom]

Fairydust,
The way I read the post, left an empty feeling in my heart. I don't know how 9/11 felt, (I was in Seattle for the Northwest AIDS walk on Sept. 7) BUT I still feel robbed and tortured of good memories of NYC, and despite whatever is said about NYC, I still love it, because It will allways hold a special place in my heart.
No, it didn't happen in my country, and no, it's not just your problem, it's everyone's! because the tragedy of 9/11 touched all of us.
Yes, I agree Canada has a huge problem with immigration, and I agree something should be done about curbing it. But, there are also muslim Canadians here too, and like the US, it's really hard to distinguish the natives from immigrants.

[Phigalilly]

After finishing the post below, I read it through and realized the tone may seem angry, that was not my intention. Scared is closer to how I feel. It is definately emotional. As a student of religion I found the direction this thread was heading very disturbing and felt I needed to say something. I would encourage anyone interested to read the Koran. It's not very long and it will be easy to see how a few disturbed people can pervert the word of God through Muhammad as easily as the word of God through Jesus has been, and continues to be, twisted and made evil by some.




The terrorists of 9/11 are not following, and did not follow, the teachings of the God of the Islamic religion anymore than the Ku Klux Klan follow the God of the Crosses they burn. Terrorists have commited acts of violence in the name of Jesus, or Allah, or name your Diety. If it's a question of equating the level of evil with the number murdered, a quick glance through a religious history book will show you that Christians don't come out so good. They Salem witch trials were nothing compared to what went on in Europe. All in the name of Christ. Does that make Jesus evil?
If all that seems too long ago and far away, there are plenty of "Christian" organizations today that use the Bible and Jesus to influence, control, spread hate, and justify violent acts on innocent people. Every faith has it's violent wack jobs that use the "my God is better than your God" arguement to dehumanize and objectify the "other" to the point that it becomes easy to kill. If we start holding every Muslim responsible for crimes commited in the name of Allah, do we then hold all Christians responsible for crimes commited in the name of Jesus? The Muslims killed by Christians in Bosnia are just as dead.

[Fairiedust]

I'm not trying to blast anyone, but when children from a Muslim school in the U.S. interpret the Islamic word as being okay to strap a bomb to your self and blow up as many people as you can, something is very wrong somewhere. This, even though they were born and raised in the U.S.

No I don't think any religion is sancrosanct. Every single one has members that are as nutty as peanut butter. And yes Christianity can hang its head in shame too, along with every other religion. Heck as a teenager studying WWII I felt guilty because I was German. And my family had immigrated here many many years before. Saudi Arabia (which is very Muslim) per their law, will behead you if you convert someone to christianity. I'm asking why the Koran says one thing and many many believe just the opposite. And no one has questioned it. Yes atrocities happen all through history and they are called on it. The number of people killed is not the point. One is too many.


This is a safe place to voice questions and struggle for answers together.

[Fairiedust]

Mom,

I meant no disrespect in any way towards Canada.
WE fell down on the job in many ways. Now isn't the time for blame, but hiking up our britches and making sure it never happens again.

Truly, I would like to see the U.S. declare a moritorium on immigration unitl everything in the INS is cleaned and ready to protect. That seems harsh, but if you clean house, you don't invite company to help or hinder. The way it is now, there will always be a loophole grandfathered in. And yes, I know there are always special exceptions. We have to learn to do a much better job or more sorrow will come our way.

FD

[kimk]

I was enjoying this thread at the beginning but I have to agree (and thank) Phigalilly...the tone is becoming a little too pointed. By that I mean: please don't turn this into a "we don't need anymore immigrants int his country" thread. Some statements are being made that are simply not true. IMO, people are being thrown into categories and generalized about and that is insulting to any Muslims or Germans or any other ethnic/religious or racial group that has been mentioned.

Again, IMO, we can explore this topic without getting into generalizations about what happens in other countries, or what some people believe will happen once they go to heaven. There are extremists in every religion. Anyone can twist anything in order to justify what they are doing. The Bible is interpreted in thousands of ways, just like the Koran.

Please be careful here folks. Some of us are Muslims, some of us are married to Muslims, some of us live side by side very peacefully with people from every country and every religion. I interact with people from all over the world every day,Iranians, Saudi Arabians, Pakistanis, Croatians, Asians, Nigerians,(just to name a few), and have not found one single person, Muslim, Jew, Christian, Buddhist, who agree with what happened on 9/11.

As far as sorrow coming our way, Timothy McVeigh (to name just one) brought huge sorrow to us and he was an American...."cleaning house" is not the answer nor is an "us vs. them" mentality going to help us heal from these horrible events.

Can we please get back to the topic as it relates to JE??

[Fairiedust]

I work with many people everyday also. But that doesn't make me stop asking questions. There are things out there and here at home we don't want to hear and so turn away. This was not meant to be offensive to anyone. As far as immigration, I would like a time out, not " Stop immigration forever". My family were immigrants, so why would I deny others the same freedoms I have one more point. Everything I have stated has been documented.

I guess I should have taken this somewhere else. Please continue on without me. I will take my biased, opinionated, nasty self away from this thread.

Okay, I'm done.

FD I guess as a German, I just insulted myself.

[canadianmom]

I feel a little guilty on two counts, first, I was asked a question, and I answered it, and probably made some generalizations I shouldn't have, and I'm sorry if I offended anyone, that wasn't my intent.
And second, these terrorists came through Canada, and that makes me both angry & guilty. Angry because of the act, and guilty because we (our country) should've known better!
FD you started this thread, and it got us talking about our feelings about 9/11, and that's a good thing! :) so please don't leave! (((FD)))

[Fairiedust]

Awwww....((((Mom)))

Don't feel bad, I don't harbor any ill feelings towards you or anyone. JE's tapes and every other psychic development program urges you to keep a journal. Well, in some ways, this is a journal. It's also like teachers who always have questions poured on them from the little tykes. They ask questions to learn. Why isn't that okay for adults? I'm not really sure I should be posting on this thread again.

I guess I still go by the old saying, "Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me!"
I'm not ready to roll over and let Anyone else destroy what millions of people have worked for and died for, FOR this country.

Our biggest problem is not having control of anything related to terrorism, etc. What a huge job the WORLD has taken on against terrorism.

Well, let me know if my nose should stay elsewhere.

FD

[Pam]

Let me stick my 2 cents in here, as the moderator and owner of the board.

Yes, this is a very emotionally hot subject, and yes, we can and should safely air our feelings and thoughts here, without becoming offensive or offended. If there's any "curbing of the conversation" to be done, please let me, and the other moderators do it.

The original question was made by Fairiedust: "A life filled with hate for others not of their religion, culture, or economic circumstances. What in the world are they learning?"

Now let me take the moderator hat off, and speak on a personal level.

Right now, 9/11 is in front of our noses, like the dark at the end of a tunnel. But let's take a step back and look at the bigger picture, outside of the tunnel, in light of ALL of mankind, including all history, peoples and religions. This isn't about the dark details of 9/11, and the minute pieces of the puzzel that led up to it.

I think in order to have this conversation, we need to accept that there are just some things we will never understand. I know that this is painful, but I doubt that understanding why these terrible atrocities happen, make them any less painful. And the world is too large and too heavily populated, to ever prevent it from happening again in the next 7 generations. But still we struggle to understand what cannot be understood.

Look back over history at other similar genocides and mass murders inflicted on innocent people. The perpetrators wanted control over their environment and other people, for many different reasons, be it land, wealth, politics. Notice I didn't say religion, because religion is often only used as an excuse, but is rarely the true inspiration.

I believe that there is no "true religion" that has it right. There is no religion that I know of, that sanctions attrocities, unless it's true Satanism. "God" is so awesome and mysterious, that a man-created religion can't come anywhere near the true majesty, and all-encompassing being that God is.

I beleive in God. But religion is just Man's limited attempt to define God, and express that limited understanding of God, within the context of his own culture, language, and knowledge of nature and science. Again, all very limited.

The confusion comes when we begin to think that any "religion" actually and truthfully expresses the unknowable God. It's not a matter of "my God" being "their God" too. Turn the tables and see that it's a question of "my lack of understanding the true God" vs. "their lack of understanding the true God".

[Fairiedust]

Point taken Pam, but I'm still swishing it around in my lil ol head. Maybe that OTHER bottle of wine will help.

Are we still allowed to post here? Or are we out in the street with a cardboard placard to the next destination. Maybe we can all handle the recipe folder. Do we have one. Hmmm....Goulash ala JE doesn't sound too bad. Might even be fun to exchange recipes from around the world. Recipes related to psychic development of coarse, like fish for brain power. Sorry!! Blame lack of sleep for the nuttiness.

I'm afraid 9/11 will be a hot topic for the next 60 years, probably with as little understanding then as now. Emotionally speaking.

Thanks for the input.

FD

[canadianmom]

"Maybe we can all handle the recipe folder. Do we have one. Hmmm....Goulash ala JE doesn't sound too bad. Might even be fun to exchange recipes from around the world. Recipes related to psychic development of coarse, like fish for brain power. Sorry!! Blame lack of sleep for the nuttiness."

Hey FD, I love that idea!! And I LOLed along with you when I read the post! :D
The second bottle of wine?...Hmmm... ;)

[retrokitten]

This is such a great thread, I hope I don't have to hit the street with a placard (I loved that saying!); although I do have a great recipe for a no bake cheesecake (Healing White Light No Bake Cheesecake?).

I know this is a silly comparison or illustration, but I'm gonna use it anyway. Does anyone watch "Futurama"? There was one where Bender (a robot) got launched into space and this little civilization formed on him and looked at him to be God. He thought this was really cool and made them do all kinds of stupid things that they willingly did because he was thier god. This resulted in the people of the little civilization getting hurt, mamed and attacked by the people of the civilization that had formed on the back of him. They just wiped themselves out. Bender keeps on floating through space and reaches actual God Himself. They talk and Bender asks Him how can He do it? How can He be everywhere and why is there suffering? God replied, "When things work perfectly, it's like I'm doing nothing at all." That really stuck with me. Then God launched Bender back to his craft (in case you were wondering how it ended). For me that really made sense.

It may seem like God has turned His back on us, because of the evil things men do, but I believe he is still there tweeking and fine tuning things in everybodies lives. I have to believe it, because it helps me get through each day. Fairiedust, I hope you find the answers that make sense for you and help you get through your days, too. :angel:

[Fairiedust]

I don't think God ever abandoned us or doesn't care. Sometimes we need a wakeup call, and lots of caffiene. That's when the questions start flowing out of mouth and dribbling down chin.

That story was very good. Thank you for sharing it!

FD Doesn't a bottle of wine still sound good?

[Pam]

Very nice story, retrokitten, thank you for sharing it :)

[Eric]

I'm very interested by the original question in this thread, which I interpret as, "Do spirits choose to live harmful/evil lives?"

In situations where a small number of people are responsible for a great deal of harm, as in the case of the holocaust, terrorism, serial murder, or wars, there are a couple things worth considering.

One, if the event is planned ahead of time, then it follows that the victims must have agreed to it as well. That possibility is certainly interesting to consider. I personally believe spirits agree to live lives cut short by violence on a small scale--presumably for important reasons--so why not on a grand scale? Have we as a culture learned something important from the events of the holocaust? Is that enough to justify it happening?

If the events are NOT planned ahead of time, then it means that a few spirits can irrevocably mess up the plans for multitudes of others. If the holocaust wasn't planned in advance, then the six million spirits who died presumably had *different* plans for their death, and had those plans interrupted. If that can happen, how much use is the planning in advance, if those plans can be so easily changed by someone else?

For that reason, I tend to lean towards the first possibility--that events like the holocaust are planned in advance. It is difficult for us to fathom how men and women responsible for such harm can somehow be 'sanctioned' by the other side. The acting analogy that was mentioned is a good one, however. Someone has to play the bad guy. No one truly judges an actor for crimes their character commits...those crimes are necessary for the story to work. Likewise, real life crimes and tragedies might be necessary for the 'story' of our growth.


Remember too, that those who died in the holocaust, or an act of terrorism, essentially 'went home'. I have yet to see JE talk to any murder victim who harbours resentment about what has happened...I assume the same would be true here.

Anyway, just some ramblings on the topic. :)

[WPBEAR14]

It might be good to take a few deep clensing breaths before and after reading this. I'm just home from my meditation meeting where two women I know channel entities from the other side. I am part of that group and this group for a reason, and I apologize ahead of time if I offend anyone, it is not my intent to do so.

I agree and disagree.....

that any "religion" actually and truthfully expresses the unknowable God. from Pam

I agree with Pam about religions, but I don't think GOD is unknowable. He is within us all, we are part of him. We just don't always know how to find HIM within ourselves. Openess and UNCONDITIONAL LOVE, as well as continued SOUL GROWTH here and there, are some ways. Until "Earth people" can accept the tenet and follow the practice of UNCONDITIONAL LOVE, differences that lead to violence will exist. To me that means loving all living things (and perhaps non-living, too) and expecting nothing in return back to you. Sending out white light and love to all (yes, even terrorists.)

This is difficult to learn to do. But can be done. Start small...your pet, your spouse, your children, your grandchildren, your crossed over loved ones. I know I have not mastered UCL, but I really do believe in it.

I agree with Eric that we have chosen a path or role here at Earth school and it seems to follow some of John Edwards teachings, too:

One, if the event is planned ahead of time, then it follows that the victims must have agreed to it as well. That possibility is certainly interesting to consider. I personally believe spirits agree to live lives cut short by violence on a small scale--presumably for important reasons--so why not on a grand scale? Have we as a culture learned something important from the events of the holocaust? Is that enough to justify it happening?
from Eric

But we are in Earth school because we need to learn, thus this idea of planned roles does not always make sense to us. Just like students don't understand why they need to learn math or how they will use it in the future.

But there are TEACHERS here, but we need to listen to them with our soul and not our mind. JE has been and is a TEACHER for me. There are GUIDES, too, on the otherside, as JE has mentioned many times.

I've stated some "deep" ideas for you to ponder. It might be good to take a few deep clensing breaths before and after reading this.

Love, light and learning,
POOH

[Irishrose]

Hi Pooh:

Thanks for sharing your concepts with us. I have to agree that they make a lot of sense. I can remember years ago when the thought of aliens was such a scary conversation that it was almost tabu in public conversation for fear of being treated as a mentally unbalanced person - honestly.

As time went on it became more of an open conversation and the possibility of other beings visiting us was a little more open for general discussion. How does all of this fit in with this thread?

The general concept is the same - to even consider that life lessons could include something as horrific as what has happened to us last September could ever happen is an eye-opener.

We all have things to learn - whether we are actually involved in that lesson or whether we need to observe that lesson from afar is no different. It is important that we understand life as we knew it is changing. The unconditional love that Pooh mentioned is very important. Be aware of your surroundings - don't be so quick to judge anything anymore.

Today in church we had a visiting minister and his message was about Love. He asked us to put our name in place of the word love and find a new comfort level for our selves - here is how it goes. For some of you it was incorporated into your wedding vows. It originates from I Corinthians, Chapter 13. Try it - it makes you think...

Here is the original...

Love is patient and kind; love is not jealous or boastful; it is not arrogant or rude. Love does not insist on its own way; it is not irritable or resentful; it does not rejoice at wrong, but rejoices in the right. Love bears all things, hopes all things, endures all things, love never ends. So faith, hope and love abide, these three; but the greatest of these is love.

Now, put your name where the word love is in the first two sentences. It is the beginning of unconditional love. One step at a time. Evenutally it becomes a way of life.

Thanks again Pooh - Irishrose

[CHARLOTTE]

Originally posted by TXJUDE
FairieD, I'm afraid I'm as confused as you about this subject. What about Hitler? Doesn't seem to make sense does it?

Haven't I also read, though, that everything is not set in stone, and that we are able to make changes and choices along the way? Is it possible that they chose that life, then "free will" set in and they diverged from the path?

Nevermind -- I think I'm confusing myself even more.

TXDUDE; Have you, by chance, read the book called "The Messenger"? Is that how you decided upon your name?

[CHARLOTTE]

purple :lwink:

I have to agree that many use their chosen religion to further their madness and their meaness. In other words, if you don't believe as we do, then you 'don't believe'.

[Jude]

Charlotte,

Welcome to the board!

:wave:

No, I haven't ever read The Messenger. Who wrote it?