Money and spirituality

[Pam]

Demi said:
Fifthly, one negative (my issue) area which I am still working on is how JE and other psychics might be comfortable making a career out of what is a God given gift. Not that I am trying to compare JE with Jesus or saints or prophets, but imagine if one of them charged for a healing, it just wouldn't have the same feel about it. I have helped people on a psychic level but I have never 'worked' as a psychic and although financially I could definitely use the money I am incredibly ill at ease with the idea of charging for healing. Feedback on this one would be appreciated. I'm not critical of JE, I just want to understand how to reconcile these two elements.

Money paradigms....tell us alot about ourselves.

I've dealt with the issue of John taking money for what he does, via several private emails from people, or on other discussion boards. I've even discussed ith with John. The first thing I point out, is we don't know what John does with his money. He may give a large portion to charity. He may re-invest a lot of that money into bringing "the message" to more and more people. We don't know.

When it comes to the discussion of making money, basically I always ask, "Where do you draw the line?"

Is it ok for a heart surgeon to make several thousand dollars on saving a patient's life on the operating table? Wasn't he doing "God's work" too? Do we value the physical body more than we value our spiritual body? We may complain and moan when we get the surgeon's bill....but no one challenges the integrity of a surgeon for charging the $$$ that he does. We justify it, saying that he had to spend lots of $$$ to go through medical school, and that you cannot put a price on human life. How do *we* know when he's paid his school loans off and the rest of profit, or if he had a scholarship? We don't, but culturally, we accept that a surgeon makes thousands of dollars for an afternoon's work.

Does living in poverty make you spiritual? In some places right here in America, the poverty is so bad, that some resort to stealing, shoplifting and worse. I don't see how poverty makes you spiritual.

There seems to be a double standard that says it's ok to pay rock stars and sports stars millions of dollars per year, but our policeman who put their lives on the line so we don't have to, are starting somewhere in the early $30,000. How about nurses who perform most of the primary care for our loved ones in the hospital, doing things that some of us could never bring ourselves to do - they make a pittance. What about school teachers? We entrust our children's very minds and psyches (and therefore their very souls) to these people 30+ hours a week, and they make a salary that's very undesirable.

Why are we willing to pay top dollar for rock concerts and sports events to support million dollar salaries, but the people who really make our world tick have to sometimes work 2 jobs or tons of overtime just to feed their kids?

I believed that, but then I came to myself. Somehow, I started to feel guilty, thinking about selling books from this site. I'm a stay at home mom and we have made lots of sacrifices in order to allow me to be at home with my child. But this little hobby of mine, these websites, were draining the pocketbook. I was facing getting a part time job, just to support the websites at this quality (no banner ads, etc.)

I had a dilema. I could sell John's books, and other books and items of interest to people who support John Edward - or I could go out and flip burgers so that some shareholder could make a profit. But would I be "selling out" by taking money on this subject? Would I be more spiritual making money for someone else?

Then I realized how backwards my fears were. I realized "God bless anyone who makes a living at what they believe in. in stead of the other way around. Believe me, I've had jobs where the product or goal was in direct violation of my beliefs. According to the Prayer of Jabez, abundance is not a sin, it's God's wish for us.

Everyone needs and deserves to make a living - a good one :)

[Demi]

Okay, I can't stay away from this site. I'm addicted. I wasn't meant to be back till Friday.

Thanks for your comments on money making. I am on what is called a carer's pension which is a pitiful amount and does not even come close to helping people survive, let alone, help their loved ones who are sick or disabled. I am a uni grad. and I would like to go back to study next year. Things are getting uncomfortable and I am going to be forced to make a choice before the new year is out. I have a choice to go and stack items on a supermarket store each night and earn just a little more then the pension or I can work just one day at home for the same amount of money or more ! This would leave me with time for family and study and of course provide the much needed funds for both areas of my life.

This is ideally what I would like to do. Apart from other forms of psychology, I have been trained in transpersonal psychology and I would be interested in using the tarot cards. I believe that the tarot cards can be used as a psychological tool to allow a person to interpret what is happening in their lives and provide themselves with answers to which direction to take. It can be used as psychological tool apart from any psychic input, although the latter will no doubt play a part. It is also a wonderful opportunity to gain practice as a future clinical psychologist which is the reason I am going back to university.

This is what I would like to do, but I have been struggling with the charging money end of it. Should I charge, how much, should it be on a sliding scale, could it be converted into a donation, what about bartering, what if there is someone who is unable to pay????? As if its not hard enough to deal with all the self-doubts about whether I would be any good in this role!

I think what you both (Don and Pam) have said has helped a great deal. Its true, why is the spiritual less valued than other professions. Why should we expect our priests for example, to live life as paupers barely able to survive let alone help others. No wonder there are so many psychological problems amongst priests. I have heard that as a carpenter both Jesus and his family would have been wealthy. Maybe that is why money was never important in his messages but we have interpreted that as a calling to poverty. Saying that money is the root of all evil is not the same as saying that we shouldn't deal with it. What it is saying is that we should be aware that money should be dealt with wisely and shouldn't become an end in itself or used to corrupt. Okay, I can deal with this.

Thanks this has helped a lot.
Demi.

[Pam]

In ancient times those who had a spiritual calling had to go away from the world, to the monastic life, not just from money, but from the "carnal" (of the flesh, worldly, material) things that were distractions from the spiritual. It wasn't because those things were considered sinful or bad. It was because having to plow the fields, carry the water, build the fire, etc. etc. was too demanding physically and also mentally to allow time for learning, contemplation, prayer and meditation.

The saying is "the love of money is the root of all evil" not money itself. The greed or hunger for power over others is what will lead one away from where the soul is called to be.

Money itself is just a tool, and like any other tool, can either be abused, or, it can be used for good. For example to feed yourself and your family, to further your education, or to further your ability to reach the people that need to hear what you have to say.

I think that if you look around at what others are charging for the same type of consulting (tarot readers) in your geographical area, and then combine that with what you *need* and what you're willing to start out with, you'll come up with a fair price that's reasonable to you, and reasonable to your client. You can add or subtract as you go along, according to your needs and values. If you pray and meditate over it, and make sure that you're coming from a loving place - you can't go wrong :)

[AmyJ]

I just wanted to add as far as JE goes he EARNS every penny he makes. I consider it a sort of combat pay. He is under tremendous stress and even danger for standing up and speaking for what we all believe in. I don't think many of us would take that on even if we did have his ability. Thank God he does!! Just my humble opinion!!:D
AmyJ

[pudgybuster]

Pam:
You are incredible -- what a gift you have for saying what needs to be said succintly. I had this EXACT same discussion at school today about how lopsided our entire value system is -- those who put their lives on the line -- policemen, firemen -- those who help the underprivleged, social workers, probation officers, people who work with the elderly -- where is the justice here? Clevelanders are wondering if their beloved Jim Thome will accept $75 MILLION dollars from another team and leave us. Oh paleeze -- DOES ANYONE IN THE WORLD NEED $75 MILLION DOLLARS? (Okay, so it's over a few years, but STILL.....)

You are right when you say that no one knows what they do with that excess amount of money, but unfortunately history tell us that it is unlikely it is used for anything other than personal gain. There are very few true philanthropists in this world. And the ones who are, almost always remain anonymous. (I am not putting John in the category of using his gift to get rich -- I adore him).

I've been one to question the integrity of using someone's raw grief to "make a profit", but again you are right because when it comes to a surgeon we spare no cost. But let's face it -- the outcome can be felt, touched and assessed. With someone like John, the outcome is simply subjective.

Anyway -- I just had to respond to your post. I have so much respect for you. Thank you for being here for us "searching souls":confused:

In God's love,
Jeannie

[Pam]

Oh gosh. *blush* Thank you so much. This is something that I get passionate about I guess. And I didn't come to these thoughts all on my own, I've learned them from my mentors and favorite authors.

As for making money on grief - we are willing customers to all kinds of people who make a living that way. We pay the funeral industry tons of money, because it makes us feel better, that we've done the right thing, paid our respects, but deep down we know it's just a ritual and a custom and has no bearing on the physical reality of the soul departed or the souls left behind. But we pay.

Another analogy to the surgeon, is psychotherapy. When we're grieving we know the right thing to do is to go into therapy. Or when we experience divorce, or other stressors. Do we accuse a psychotherapist or counsellor of profiting from our troubles?

To be sure, there are frauds out there, who see dollar signs in the emotionally challenged, and they don't just exist in the field of psychics or mediums. There are frauds in the funeral industry and uncaring quacks in psychotherapy, but that doesn't mean they ALL are frauds.

[Gypsy]

Pam, you totally overwhelm me with your words. I think the work you do here is wonderful, but I believe you have maybe missed another calling. What Pudgybuster said was correct, "what a gift you have for saying what needs to be said succintly". A journalist, a writer, a teacher, something great. I have always struggled to get my thoughts down and to read someone as talented as you, well, I don't have the words.

Have you considered writing?

Gypsy

[Rainay]

I agree that JE earns whatever he makes. There is no amount of money that could entice me to do what JE does everyday - such as the ridicule. And exactly what AmyJ mentioned. Not many people could withstand that sort of life. He is very lucky to have such a supportive wife and family.

I only hope no one tries to commercialize him. That would be the one thing that would make me question the money thing. JE sneakers, clothing line....you know what I mean?

[Pam]

Originally posted by Gypsy
Pam, you totally overwhelm me with your words. I think the work you do here is wonderful, but I believe you have maybe missed another calling. What Pudgybuster said was correct, "what a gift you have for saying what needs to be said succintly". A journalist, a writer, a teacher, something great. I have always struggled to get my thoughts down and to read someone as talented as you, well, I don't have the words.

Have you considered writing?

Gypsy **double blush again** Gosh thanks :) Yes, I have considered it, but that's about it. I sit, and I consider it, and I don't do it :) I have ADD and that means that I have a list of about 30 things that I would love to write about -- but things rarely get started, and the ADD means that nothing ever gets finished. Maybe when Zach enters school.


Originally posted by Rainay
I agree that JE earns whatever he makes. There is no amount of money that could entice me to do what JE does everyday - such as the ridicule. And exactly what AmyJ mentioned. Not many people could withstand that sort of life. He is very lucky to have such a supportive wife and family.

I only hope no one tries to commercialize him. That would be the one thing that would make me question the money thing. JE sneakers, clothing line....you know what I mean?

I agree that he works very dilligently for the money, and I know it's not all pie and roses for them, but they know there's a higher calling then their own personal comfort.

I think if the commercialization was going to happen, it would have happened already. It's been three years in the spotlight of the media, and if John has control over such things. There are t-shirts, baseball caps and mugs, but they're all "giveaways".

[karma]

John addressed this isue in his new book "Crossing Over: The Stories Behind the Stories". In it he talks about when he first started out doing readings, and basically what he said is that in regards to fees charged he would only charge what he himself would pay for such services. John said he made a promise to his boys( his guides) that he would never do it for the money, and that whenever a money issue would come up, a catastrophie would always be right around the corner.

Pick up a copy of the book. It's an awesome read cover to cover, and it probably will clear up any questions you may have.

Peace, Tina

[SuzieQ3058]

I think it's not that he earns money at it, it's how he goes about it. I am just reading Crossing Over so this is fresh in my mind, because he talks about it in the book.
When John was letting the desire for money be his motivation, it was a catastrophe. He lost thousands of dollars and considered quitting the medium business all together.

It wasn't until he realized he needed to be true to the work, that the finacial rewards followed. And I think it works that way in every field. If you do a job because you truly have a passion for it, and love what you are doing, you will be successful . You will succeed to the highest achievments. If you pick a job because there is good money in it, and you don't enjoy it or it's not natural to you, you are going to fail. Maybe not totally financially, but in physical and mental strain. When you're not happy, things don't work well. It's that simple.

We have all been given talents and passions that we use to earn a living and make the world a better place. John is no different.
Yes, he is making alot of money as a result of his fame, but aren't you glad that he is? He's worked hard, with honor and integrity. What else can you ask for?

Suzanne

[Pam]

Suzanne - AMEN. I can vouch for that - not so much in money, but in happiness. When hubby and I started living true to our values (less house, less "stuff", I quit my management job to be a mom, we threw away our cell phones) not only did we have less stress and more joy...but somehow - oddly - we have more cash left over at the end of the month, than when we were making twice the income. I do the books, and I still can't figure out how that can be, except to say, "Hmmmm...the universe provides" :)

And yes, I wish John and Sandra, and everyone that works with them, abundance, whatever that means to them :)

[Rainay]

Per Pam:
"I think if the commercialization was going to happen, it would have happened already. It's been three years in the spotlight of the media, and if John has control over such things. There are t-shirts, baseball caps and mugs, but they're all "giveaways".

(I tried to do the quote thingy, but couldn't)

Pam,
Oh my goodness, I agree totally!! There are so many companies that probably drool at the thought of capitalizing off JE and somebody said "no." Thank goodness!!

Also, the book
Crossing Over provides much insight to what is important to JE and it's not the money. I really loved this book because it showed the integrity behind JE's purpose.

[Demi]

Hi to all esp Pam,

Firstly, I thought I was going mad, I couln't find the post you wrote for me. Don't scare me like that. You know I'm new to all this.

I can't tell you how much this thread has helped me. I think it has become a part of my unconscious thinking to view money as bad. It is probably at the base of my constantly being short of it!

I think it also has become important to me, because I started to see a therapist a few months ago and he charges me above medicare. That is, a portion is paid by the government and a portion by myself. I had been feeling angry about it because for him my few dollars won't make a great deal of difference, but for me it is money desperately needed. I couldn't see how this could not be classified as greed, UNTIL, I got to look at the prices being charged by those so called 'telephone mediums' (you know the type that advertise in the back of local newspapers, along with what they politely call the 'Personal Ads'). My university trained doctor is making less than half of what they do for the hour. Now that is greed! I have worked through this to some extent because I realised that firstly, I don't know what his financial needs are. Secondly, whether I like it or not, having to pay has added value to the service. It has acted as a motivating force to get my act together and work in therapy because otherwise it will be money wasted!

In starting my own little business, I think I will end up using the sliding scale method and I will deal with each individual case on its merits. I am really excited about it now. I am so glad that you took this up Pam. It is incredible how much this site has helped me figure things out over the last month. I also think that you have a great gift as a writer. The way I have overcome my ADD, if that is what you call it, is to open several files and when you sit down you just open the file that means most to you at that time.

Best wishes,
Demi

[closingtime]

I agree with many of the things written here about getting paid for this type of thing and wanted to add a few points.

One is obvious, on his tv show which is a great way for a very large group of people to receive his message someone is going to make money. Should he say to the television station he's not going to take their money? They'd be pleased if he did, i mean they'd happily make money off his show and keep it all. Then JE could be happy in some part time job elsewhere to pay the bills.

Another thing is this idea that people with a gift that involves spirituality owe it to all of us to share it, to read us and share their message and not get any financial reward for it. Now fakes I agree shouldnt get anything, but if what he is doing is real (and i believe it is) he has every right to get paid for changing the lives of those he's reading. There's this idea some people have where if its a message having to do with god they need to show they're legit by being poor (like the nun and priest analogy someone used) he has to prove he's legit enough without worrying about paying the bills.

One final point is this, people who go for readings aren't usually saints. Im not putting them down but we're all human. A person might have spent 70 bucks on a pair of shoes when they stopped in the mall before a reading. They may spend 100+ dollars a week on cigarettes. Money is a very real part of their lives and most use it in ways they shouldnt, why then should they then go and get a life changing reading and not have to pay? In a way its showing its worth it to them, the same way a trip to vegas is or something else they spend money on.

I can imagine all the people coming in (for free) sitting in front of JE and saying (im here, prove to me you're legit) that would get really old.

Just some thoughts i had that are not so much spiritual justifications for getting paid for services using talents he's worked on for years, but practical reasons why its insane to put him down for making a living off of what he's meant to do in life.

[forgiveness]

As John's work grows..so does his expenses.
John wrote in his book that in the early days he was a one person operation. I am sure that has changed! People could say "Look at all the money he Makes"
Well...How about all the money he must spend to run a business.
How about the time he spends. My goodness, New books, TV show, Drama Show, Private practice...and who know what other projects are lurking. All with the intention to heal and teach.
That is so worth it.

The Jamestown and the Glen cove seminar were for charity...yet there are expenses involved in travel and staffing. (The crossing over staff was at Jamestown for instance)


The cost of healing and doing good for the world comes out of his pocket for traveling expenses as well.

I look at others psychics like International Psychic Medium Robert Brown who does travel all over the globe to bring healing messages.


If these two medium where in it for JUST the money...I am sure they would retire early after making a buck and not care about the work.
But that is not the case. They continue to grow and be teachers.

I love Pam's analogy of a heart surgeon. For many years, we have accepted that it is ok for Doctors that heal our physical bodies to make a living at it...well as we move toward the future, I feel society will see that we have spiritual selfs that need attention and healing. Psychic Mediums like John deserve to make a living at what they do so they can give all they have to offer to the world. Just as a talented Doctor does.

[soulseeker47]

I love this site and all who share their opinions :jumper:
Thank-you sooooo much and I mean that from the bottom of my heart!
It is a pleasure to brainstorm ideas with so many level headed and talented people. Your threads fire me up and give my soul and spirit the proper fuel to get me through some days. There are many, many negatives that bombard a person daily and being able to come here and absorb all this positve energy is priceless to me.
Pam,
I feel the Communications here are very Appreciated and that is proven by the Validation of all members that contribute.
Blessings to all :love:

[Alevia]

Pam, I loved your analogies and I completely agree. John is entitled to make whatever amount of money comes to him - it is his job, and it is a healing job. What John does is priceless. The same goes for all healers doing healing work. Thank you for your thoughtful responses.

Lori
Alevia

[SuzieQ3058]

I was watching Crossing Over one day last week and John was addressing this same subject. He said " when people ask if I'm exploiting death and grief, I say " does an oncologist exploit cancer? " "

I think that about sums it up :)

Suzanne

[pudgybuster]

He said " when people ask if I'm exploiting death and grief, I say " does an oncologist exploit cancer? " "

I think that about sums it up :)


Yes, it certainly does. He, like our Pam, has a way of putting things in perfect perspective. This thread is awesome, by the way -- you guys are such incredible thinking machines, I'm constantly humbled by the intelligence here!

One more thought -- I think the whole money thing is more about "the Love" of money than the earning of it. The greed part is the essential ingredient. I am certain that we all know what it takes to make ends meet, and then have some left over to help those we love, or donate to a worthy cause. The problems arise when we lose site of what is important -- and most things truly important are priceless (I feel a Master Card commercial coming on:lwink: ). All points made were certainly valid and thoughtful. I especially love whoever said that when you work at a job you love, the money, as well as fulfillment, will follow.

Again -- thank all of you for taking the time to think deeply and share with us.

Hugs and :angel:
Jeannie

[vivi56]

I thought I would respond to this issue. First I want to thank Pam for the way she can put things in writing and the talent she has to form these postings. I just wanted to say that up until I think about three years ago before John became so popular I would watch shows on TV with other mediums and would really want to attend a seminar or session however these other people really weren't that readily attainable for the average person like me. When I began watching John I couldn't believe he was accessable to the average person. Having been to the Gallery twice I feel he wants to reach out to us as best he can even with his seminars. I was thrilled to actually be in the same room as John and watch him read people. We are very fortunate to have someone like him. As far as the question about him making money off this, I just don't agree. He has a wonderful talent, I feel the prices of the tickets are fair and we have to remember the overhead he has to put a seminar on. I fully agree with Pam and everyday I am so glad we have someone like John to comfort us .
Viv:daisy: :daisy: :daisy:

[Pam]

bump.

We make our living by what we get. We make our life by what we give.

- Martin Luther King

[Irishrose]

and great responses.

It was mentioned earlier that anytime JE decided money was the issue he fell flat on his face. It has always been that way for him. So, in my humble opinion, he only does what he is meant to do and that is to help the earthly souls come to grips with what life is all about. Maybe if all of us hear it enough times we will get it...;) Allowing him to get paid for what he does is just an aside. He gets what he needs and most likely not a whole lot more that does not have a real good purpose.

Demi, I wish you all the best in your business. I think you understand now how charging for your talent is no different than an artist charging for their talent. It is not the prime reason for using your talent - it is a bit of a necessity so that you can further your talent.

God's love to all of you. You are a great bunch of people that I am so very glad to have met.

Irishrose:D

[Jeannie]

Bravo Pam. As usual you expressed yourself quite eloquently. I think that your views are probably shared by many of us. As for you selling items on the board, I don't see why it should bother anyone. As I look at it you offer items that may be otherwise more difficult for some of us to obtain and are items that are of unique interest to us. You offer a service for which you should be paid. I have absolutely no problem with that. I have no problem with the prices that JE charges. He deserves to make a living and from what I can tell his prices seem fair. What bothers me are the "Miss Cleos" of the world. The charlatans that take advantage of those in pain. I recently read of a couple that paid over a thousand dollars for a few minutes reading over the phone to contact their recently passed child. Thats what bothers me a lot.
Yes they were glad and eager to pay and I am glad that they were able to receive some solace, but like it was said, where do you draw the line? I have no answer for that. Thanks for letting me express my feelings on the matter.
Jeannie

[unicorn91432]

I agree with just about everyhing that's been said so far. What amazes me is that anyone would question John's right to use his talent to earn a living for his family.

'They' say its a 'God given gift' and therefore he should provide the service for free. Barbara Strisand has a 'God given gift' and no one says she should sing for free.

Athletes have a 'God given gift' and make an obscene amount of money with it. (ok, I do have a small problem with that.)

John was right when he said what a Medium does is priceless---what you pay for is their time.

We can only imagine the hurts, the insults, the cruelty he has had to live with. There is no amount of money on earth that can compensate for that. In spite of that he shares his gift with us, and we are all enriched.

Unicorn

[irene461]

I also appreciate the exchange of ideas. We can discuss so many different aspects of this even while agreeing wholeheartedly on the importance of John's talent and his message.


I agree with just about everyhing that's been said so far. What amazes me is that anyone would question John's right to use his talent to earn a living for his family.

I think this is another thing probably everyone here would agree with. In fact, I'd go farther and say that not only is he entitled to "earn a living" but to earn however much is possible in the process.

As I remember it, the issue raised was whether or not the "message" was getting lost in the process of making money. In fact, I think John himself is very familiar with how that can happen. He described it well in "CO", when he wrote about disasterous results of his marketing attempts in 1997.

Irene

[Demi]

Hi to everyone,

As you can see I still am not able to stay away for a week!

I continue to read this thread with interest. I have read again through the posts and one of the thing that stays with me is that, although there seems to be consensus that it is fair and logical for healers to make a living this way, why is it that at a heart/gut level it still feels wrong?

This is where my thinking has led me. Be warned some of it is a little harsh, not meant to offend, I just want to be brutally honest.


1. Unfortunately, I believe and probably most people would agree, I assume, that for every decent medium there are probably a hundred ruthless frauds out there, that prey on people who are at their weakest point in life in order to exploit them for money.

2. Psychics/healers, etc, do not need to study, gain qualifications, prove themselves in any way or answer to any board or association which has the power to de-register or make them liable for their advice. Ie., where do psychics go to get their abilities tested before they practice?

I think this in itself can leave a person wondering, for example, did I get a real medium or have I paid for the priviledge of being duped!

3. Why is someone's God given gift to shift boxes in the factory worth $13 an hour, while a psychic who is suppose to be acting in response to a calling by God charging $200+ an hour? Granted they need to make a livelihood but so does everyone else. Equally, everyone else has work expenses, gives to charities, wants to spend more time with their family and other life projects and equally, everyone else has to put up with people who abuse them and ridicule them for what they do. I recognise the need to make a living but there is a difference between making a living and making it rich. This goes equally for doctors and other professionals. I think the sacrifices and backbreaking work my parents did to put food on the table is as valuable as a doctor's or healer's work.

4. On the opposite end of the scale, I think that we tend to form a type of pseudo-parental role with our healers, whether they are psychics, priests or doctors. Imagine your mum charging you for every time she gave you a cuddle or told you you were worthwhile and lovable or helped you with a project, etc. Paying for someone to care for us, has an unconscious 'yuk' feeling to it.


These are some things that I am still working through. I hope I have not offended, I am trying to be as honest as possible because that is the only way that an issue like this will go away, when all questions and doubts are answered.

Demi.

[paige]

Originally posted by Pam
I think that if you look around at what others are charging for the same type of consulting (tarot readers) in your geographical area, and then combine that with what you *need* and what you're willing to start out with, you'll come up with a fair price that's reasonable to you, and reasonable to your client. You can add or subtract as you go along, according to your needs and values. If you pray and meditate over it, and make sure that you're coming from a loving place - you can't go wrong :)

I just recieved a call from a close relative who needs someone to take care of her cats for eleven days, while she is away visiting a friend who'd just lost her husband. She told me she'd pay me $15/day! I told her that $15/day was way too much money! She told me she'd just paid someone that amount for the last three weeks!!

Now, I live on a fixed income with my two boys and my rent has just been raised. Sure I can always use more money! But, I refused to accept $165 for watching her babies!! I quickly figured out the difference in my rent amount and told her that $5/day, would be sufficient!

I try to live my life as simply as possible. I have a very clear distinction between "needs" and "wants." The trick for me, is not putting myself in the position of "selling my soul" to have stuff that I don't need. Everybody defines their needs and wants in their own way. I have to do what feels right or true for me. Same goes for everyone else.

In my case, I value time with loved ones sitting at the table talking, laughing or crying over a cup of coffee, over a seven day cruise or expensive jewelry! Doesn't make me right, it just makes me happy!:D

p.

[Oscar]

Sounds similar to a child day care providers job.


1. Unfortunately, I believe and probably most people would agree, I assume, that for every decent medium there are probably a hundred ruthless frauds out there, that prey on people who are at their weakest point in life in order to exploit them for money.
For every good day care provider there are countless providers taking advantage and not giving the best care possible just to make a buck. Day care is extremely hard to find for most people with newborns.


2. Psychics/healers, etc, do not need to study, gain qualifications, prove themselves in any way or answer to any board or association which has the power to de-register or make them liable for their advice. Ie., where do psychics go to get their abilities tested before they practice?
Day care providers aren't part of any board or association or, in alot of cases, aren't forced to be licensed or take any kind of training. In states where it is necessary to be licensed to provide day care, it's not enforced and you won't be punished if you are caught without a license.


I think this in itself can leave a person wondering, for example, did I get a real medium or have I paid for the priviledge of being duped!
Leaves you wondering "Have I chosen the right person to care for my child all day long or is something happening that I wouldn't approve of?"


3. Why is someone's God given gift to shift boxes in the factory worth $13 an hour, while a psychic who is suppose to be acting in response to a calling by God charging $200+ an hour? Granted they need to make a livelihood but so does everyone else. Equally, everyone else has work expenses, gives to charities, wants to spend more time with their family and other life projects and equally, everyone else has to put up with people who abuse them and ridicule them for what they do. I recognise the need to make a living but there is a difference between making a living and making it rich. This goes equally for doctors and other professionals. I think the sacrifices and backbreaking work my parents did to put food on the table is as valuable as a doctor's or healer's work.
Why do day care providers charge $$$$ a day or week for their god given patience to be able to take care of children? Quite frankly, if anyone was so interested in making what doctors make, they should have gone to med school to become a doctor. :) Also you can't catagorize all doctors in the same group. The one's that are saving lives are making sacrifices and doing backbreaking work. If you mean plastic surgeons, well that's a different matter all together unless someone has a really horrible nose or something. :D


4. On the opposite end of the scale, I think that we tend to form a type of pseudo-parental role with our healers, whether they are psychics, priests or doctors. Imagine your mum charging you for every time she gave you a cuddle or told you you were worthwhile and lovable or helped you with a project, etc. Paying for someone to care for us, has an unconscious 'yuk' feeling to it.
People who leave their children in day care love to pay for the care giver to cuddle and love their child. There's no "yuk" feeling at all. :)

My point is that your comments could fit into quite a few different job descriptions, but no one thinks it wrong for any of the rest to charge for their services because it's not thought of as "out of the realm of normal everyday existance that 99.9% of the population believes in." Besides, everyone has the free will to not pay their money if they don't want to. You want a service, you pay for the service. You want the best service, you pay for the best service. ;)

[Demi]

Oscar,

In Australia, day care workers do have to be qualified and registered. They also have to go through criminal checks in case they have child abuse histories. And yet they remain the most underpaid workers. It is a scandal. When my niece went to pre-school, her teacher was a widowed mother of three teenagers. She worked as a day care worker full-time and part-time in a local supermarket filling shelves. Unfortunately, the full-time job paid only slightly more than the unemployment benefits.

Also, we expect all adults to act with affection and caring towards children but there is a difference when it comes to ourselves as adults. I don't mind paying for the service of car repairs, or gardening, etc, but I still feel ill at ease paying a fee instead of a donation, for the priest for example, to perform sacred ceremonies such as baptisms.

I was granted the wonderful gift of being Godmother to my nephew this year. When we made enquiries at the local church, the church had a set figure without exceptions. The amount for a half hour ceremony cost into the hundreds. I estimated that on any given weekend the church makes $10,000; that ain't small change. Now, I know that a large portion of that goes to charitable works but I also know that the priest lives with his wife and children in a beachfront mansion in an exclusive area. Ouch! It isn't about the money, I may have chosen to pay the same amount anyway, but I would have prefered to pay as a donation. Its unfair for the church to demand baptism for the 'saving of souls', and then to make a profitable business out of it.

I am playing devil's advocate here, but it seems to me that if we were to take what has thus far been said to its logical conclusion, would husbands have to pay their wives to be intimate with them, to impregnate them, compensate them for the service of childbirth, for raising their children, etc. There have to be some things in this world which do not have dollar signs attached to them. I would have thought bringing healing to a person who is suffering would not have a set dollar sign on it. I guess I am leaning now towards a donation type system. Did I mention I am a Libra and its impossible for me to make a decision and stick to it.

Hey, there is an excellent restaurant in Melbourne which is run on the basis of donations and is run by a Buddhist! Everyone said it wouldn't work (the tax dept. especially!) but apparently people have been paying more than they expected to get and the restaurant is doing very well.

Okay I have done it again. I've gone on and on. High much do I have to pay? Ha! Ha!

Demi.

[Pam]

I think part of the problem is that each person has a different emotional response to money, and then we might assume that the rest of our community has the same response. I've found this to be untrue.

While some crave money, some people are fearful of it. Some hoard it, some throw it away. Examining our own emotional and then logical response to money is probably the place to start, before worrying about what the rest of our community will think about our handling of money. We can't assume that we're all on the same page about money.

To get a bigger picture

Here's some different sources on "Spirituality and Money" to provide food for thought:

Native American Shamanism:
http://www.shamanic.net/articles/spiritmoney.html
"If you charge too much for your work, you will get sick. If you do not receive enough for your work, you will become sick."
~A statement of direction given by the Ancestral Spirits of my lineage.

Jewish thought, money is a product and symbol of human unification for survival:
http://www.aish.com/torahportion/mayanot/Soul_Money.asp
"All Jews are lamps; they each carry the Divine flame. The social unity is the addition of all the individual flames into a tremendously bright light that can dispel the darkness of the world. The goods and services associated with its maintenance cost only half a shekel, yet, you cannot have a fire without the lamp to sustain it."


A spiritual coach:
http://www.soultospirit.com/practice/columnists/love/spirit_coach/money_spirituality.asp
<snip> I encourage you to answer the questions for yourself above, and then to use your own spiritual practice to have the courage to be successful with money (after all even Mother Teresa is reputed to have accumulated about thirty million dollars a year for her cause). I also encourage you to be willing to face the trials and temptations that come with money, working through them by staying in alignment with your spiritual practice and vision of a better world.


Esoteric: Focus and balance, as in all things:
http://www3.telus.net/honeycombe_botanical/asoka4.html
Given that the Universe and the Source that created it are infinitely abundant, it is entirely correct that you should expect to be similarly abundant in your life. You have a right to wholesome expansion and wealth. Poverty is not intrinsic within creation - rather it is created by Man himself!"


I'm reminded of the bible story of Jesus, Mary Magdalene and Judas in John 12. Judas was complaining that Mary anointed Jesus with expensive essential oil, saying that the oil could have been sold for a year's wages to feed the poor. But Jesus responded that the poor will always be there, but that he, Jesus, would only be among the living for a short time.

By anointing Jesus, Mary was thanking him for bringing her brother Lazarus back to life. Only Jesus knew that he was about to be crucified and not long for the physical world. Mary's act was spiritually motivated, Jesus's acceptance of the anointing was spiritually motivated. When confronted with the alternative of fulfilling the physical needs of the poor, Jesus defended both acts on a spiritual basis. No one accused the supplier of the expensive essential oil of robbing the poor! :) In my interpretation, Jesus was saying that the spiritual need of one or two was more highly valued than the physical need of many. And cost or money was necessary, but was of LITTLE consequence.

You could put a price on the cost to feed the poor, a physical need, but you can put no price on gratitude, and no price on preparation for an act of merging the spiritual with the devine, which was in this case, his impending death.

[Pam]

Originally posted by Demi
<snip>I am playing devil's advocate here, but it seems to me that if we were to take what has thus far been said to its logical conclusion, would husbands have to pay their wives to be intimate with them, to impregnate them, compensate them for the service of childbirth, for raising their children, etc. There have to be some things in this world which do not have dollar signs attached to them. I would have thought bringing healing to a person who is suffering would not have a set dollar sign on it. I guess I am leaning now towards a donation type system. Did I mention I am a Libra and its impossible for me to make a decision and stick to it.<snip>
Demi.

But that's not a logical conclusion, because we live in society were family delineation is part of how our society operates. But if you want to really blur all the lines, then you can say that family members do get paid in other currencies, be it money, support, time, friendship, etc. It depends on where you want to draw the line. My dentist uncle doesn't charge to clean my teeth because I'm family, even though I would gladly pay him, and even though he could charge my insurance, he doesn't. But I don't expect my regular doctor to treat me without payment.

WE are the ones who attach the dollar signs. In your mind, if you take $35.00 from a client for a reading, you are the one attaching the dollars to the benefit they receive, instead of attaching the dollars to your time and costs. The person pays for your time, whether they get a beneifit or not. They can walk out with issues beyond your reach, and they've still paid their money. So, they are paying for your time, not your healing. The same can be said of the church and the baptism. You think you paid for a baptism, but you didn't. A baptism can't be bought. You paid for the candles, and the cost to wash the preists's robes, you paid for the heating and airconditioning of the building, the water bill to flush the toliets, etc.

A donation system sounds wonderful. That's how you'll find out what others think of your time.


Why is someone's God given gift to shift boxes in the factory worth $13 an hour, while a psychic who is suppose to be acting in response to a calling by God charging $200+ an hour? Because the people making the money have agreed that's what they're worth, and that's what they want to make.

It's as simple as personal choice. The person making $13.00 has agreed, in action, that they are worth $13.00 and have left it at that, instead of attempting something different. If you don't believe this, think about employees that strike for higher wages, and get it. They have "bought into" the idea, that that's all they can make.

The person making $13.00 can also make a decision that they want to become a healer/psychic/medium (or some other profession) and strive through education or other means, to get into a position making $200.00 an hour. Would it be difficult? Maybe. But not impossible, and not much more difficult than it was for the person already making $200. Conversely, the person making 200.00 can give it up and accept 13.00 at the factory.

[vivi56]

Thanks again Pam for your great posting which I agree with fully. Your opinion about the wage earner for $13.00 dollars was right on the mark. People who feel their time and work is worth more than they are being compensated for have a right to seek higher wages by striking etc. I feel that there are many people who begrudge people like John and don't realize that the work he does does not have a price. Yes the tickets are priced for admission [ although he has never charged much higher than $45.00 ] the venues usually take quite a bit and security also however he has never appeared to be hungry for money. Yes there are other so called mediums who charge much more and cancel at the last minute who are not reliable however he has never been known for that. This issue I feel is much more complicated in the fact that I think there are people who feel that they can compare him to other professions which to me is not fair. I am truly so happy that someone of his wonderful talet makes himself availale to the general public. Thanks again Pam for all you do for us with this website.

Viv:daisy: :daisy: :daisy: :daisy:

[Oscar]

A donation only system................Hummmm.....I think I'll have a little conversation with my $200 an hour plumber! :D

[AmyJ]

With the $13 per hour analogy you don't take the responsibility to others, the cost of running a business, the cost of staff, the many other extras that a factory worker has no resposnsibility for. A factory worker shows up for work and puts in his time and leaves. Not true for anyone running a business. I think we're comparing apples and oranges.
AmyJ:)

[solana]

the money thing..

I agree john earns whe he gets.. I agree that he is absolutely one of the wisest and most spiritual people of our time.. and he does this thing he does.. the healing of the spirit with panache.. !
What a style he has.. and it all adds up to him being able to help more people in more ways because ....who would not be comfortable with a smiling self effacing individual who is working hard for others?

I had a huge problem with the veterinary practice where I worked.. one that developed over the years.. the owner was.. in the beginning a very spiritual person.. who was honestly on a healing and spiritual path. He turned to spirituality and holistic healing.. and... the money started rolling in..

what happened there though, was that the money began to take precedance over the healing, and over the spirituality. He and his wife began to believe that simply attending workshop after workshop, seminars one after another.. and sponsoring spiritual speakers was all they had to do to BE spiritual.

Those of us who worked there for years and watched the progression form true healer to mr moneybags who tightened the purse strings tighter every month and gave back less and less could see that .. clearly.. he was wrong. Maybe it was a lack of character? Maybe the money was toxic to them? who knows..

Truly spiritual and sincere people would not have this problem, I think..

I think that JE is a truly sprititual and generous individual..
( as well as being rather endearing and wise) who gets out there in the trenches and give and gives ..

and heals and heals..

[Gail]

He said today he gets lots of letters from people who are healed just by watching the show. They connect with what he tells other people and it brings great comfort to them.

Now they paid nothing to get their healing through watching but their healing comes from watching John on a show that would not exist if money were not involved. It would be priceless to them.

Gail

[solana]

I know of a woman who struggles daily with the loss of her soulmate / husband.. she is older and since finding john has found some comfort from his words.. and what he does for others..

She has not quite made it to where she see that they are for her too.. but in time, I think that will happen..

There are many who do know that what JE brings through for one is validation, really for us all..

[closingtime]

Pam already answered the "paying your wife for having kids" analogy which isn't logical or a logical conclusion from a person helping strangers.

My dad didnt charge me and everyone would say rightfully so for unclogging my toilet or fixing my tire (things he knew how to do) then logically I can say to the mechanic or plumber "well my dad didnt charge for that and i believe he was right in not charging therefore I'm not going to pay you"?

What makes family and friends different is they are family and friends. If you dont see a distinction between family and strangers then can I have your number? I need to borrow a couple hundred bucks to pay for rent.

If JE charged his aunts and friends for the readings he did then you could use that analogy. I realize it was a devils advocate thing but it really isn't a logical conclusion. BTW I'm also a libra ;)

[closingtime]

Oh and btw if my church had a priest who lived in a mansion and wanted a huge amount for a baptism.. simple I wouldnt go to that church - if i dont want to pay for a spiritual type thing then I dont. However its you that's chosing to pay or not to pay, has nothing to do with the fact they are getting paid for what they do.

Another question do you get paid for your job? Many of these people do this as their career meaning they dont do this as a side act. Should they then live poor so people can spend their money on things they think are useful?

Its putting a lot of "if you're spiritual then you wouldnt ask to get ppaid for this" if mother theresa was saying that that's just fine since she dedicated her life to helping others. However when someone just got paid for their job (that they got paid for) and would rather save the money for something else and put the spirituality responsibility on another it falls short. "If i did somehting spiritual i wouldnt charge for it" well do something better.. just do something that helps other people and then work on not charging for it.

[pudgybuster]

What an incredible thread!:)
One of the things that I keep thinking about is how money exchange began in the first place -- through barter. Meaning, that two people decide what the other's service is worth to them. For those stricken with grief, John's service would be worth whatever amount they could afford, and probably then some. To carry this one step further, by the definition of barter, the person receiving the service should be giving something in return. And that would be.... in this case, the soul satisfying knowledge that John has spread his message even further. And that, if I'm really understanding his sincerity, is exactly what he wants. Now, in order for him to successfully get his message heard, it certainly takes (ok folks, here's where it gets sticky) COLD HARD CASH. There it is -- you can't do nothin' without money.

But again, from ages past we have put our own "values" on what certain things are worth to us. I work with at-risk youth whose families can't keep their electricity on because they don't pay their bills, but these kids have a different pair of $$$$very expensive$$$$ shoes to match every outfit. So they are trading their physical comfort for the psychological knowledge that they are "well dressed" and therefore validated as people. And, I hate to bring this up -- but their parents aren't paying their bills because they are supporting thousands of dollars of drug habits. So -- it's worth that much to them.

I'm not sure if this is making any sense, and I'm actually not even sure if I know exactly where I'm going with this but ---- our inner selves (no matter who we are) decide what is most essential to our beings. If you live in an underpriviledged part of the city, it's important for you to "look" slick. So that's where your livlihood goes. If you are a more "spiritual" person and how you look outwardly doesn't matter, then your money goes to other things. If your family is important, then your money is used to keep them comfortable. The problem comes, as ALWAYS, IN MY OPINION, when greed steps in and takes over all compassion.

I certainly don't know what the answer to this dilemma is, but I so firmly believe that if we are true to our hearts, and ONLY our hearts, God will provide somehow. But perhaps, we need to lower our standards a bit on what we are seeking -- a car that runs that costs $20,000 is just as effective as a car that costs $72,000 -- maybe just not as "showy".

I hope someone out there knows what I'm trying to say :lwink: because I'm getting very confused!!!!!

Thanks for sticking with me, for those of you who did:D

Love and hugs,
Pudge (Jeannie)


*****MODERATOR'S NOTE TO: This thread was never intended to be about anyone specific, excepting for maybe Demi who is available to discuss the issues. I.E., this thread is not about John Edward and how his finances should or should not work. Everyone who continues to post on this thread, please keep the posts about people general and not personal in nature, unless that person is here to discuss or answer. Thank you.

[Phigalilly]

ooops, simultaneous moderator/Phigalilly writing..my post was ALL about John Edward:D Oh well...:wave: Hi everybody.

[Demi]

Hi to everyone,

I would like to continue to thank everyone for adding to this thread and to my education. I love debate. I guess it comes with being Greek. Well that and melodrama.

I wanted to say, in agreement with the moderator's note that it was my intention to discuss my dilemma about money and spirituality/psychic work, something which I am sure a lot of people share. I wasn't intending to make it a specific discussion about JE and his handling of the issue. I also feel uncomfortable about discussing him, without him here, to add his opinion to it.

Specifically, I wanted to know how people felt about people charging large amounts or even any amounts for healing work? That is, is it right for a spiritual healer/psychic to charge money for helping an individual? I am thinking of working in the field and the thought of charging for something that I have always given to friends for free makes me feel really uncomfortable. How can these two be reconciled? Does anyone know of any rich saints?! Is poverty necessary for enlightenment or is it just its
'by-product'?

Thanks for the discussion so far. It has really helped, although there have been times I thought it would be easier to just go stack items in a supermarket shelf!

Keep at it.

Demi.

[paige]

I know I have said this before, but I think we all would benefit tremendously from Carolyn Miss' Spiritual Madness: The Necessity of Meeting God In Darkness!!

Carolyn Miss addresses the very issue of spirituality and abundance or wealth! She also provides priceless widsom and insight into several other aspects of living a "mystical" (spiritual) existence in a world of chaos!

I cannot begin to express how much these audio tapes have changed my life! I think they should be a prerequisite to "spiritual school!":lwink:

I also want to add that, if at all possible, listen to the audio tapes of this book!! Carolyn Miss has an amazing way of delivering the message that demands your attention, all the while comforting you as you process the information!! It is extremely effective!

I still listen to these tapes! Especially when I am feeling detached from the physical world. Carolyn's words appeal to my spiritual and physical life experiences! For me, it's like taking the hand of a small wondering child and gently, but firmly, drawing them back to their path and reminding them why it is necessary for us all to follow our own path!


p.:thumbsup:

[Pam]

I know I'm the one who gave you these tapes, (LOL!) but can you remind us of what she says? Or are you going to make me pull out my copy? :teacher:

[pudgybuster]

If I offended anyone with my post, I apologize. :( I certainly did not mean to.

Pudgy

[solana]

I didn't see anything offensive in your post pudgy...

And I think I understand what you mean. I feel the same.. things have gotten way out of control.. the first home we bought in the 70's was about 24,000$ most cars these days cost more..
its like the prices of things and the salaries oof some... actors and sports figures come to mind..
are spiraling out of control..

teachers.. military.. and others who do good work that matters.. make far less then those who do so little..

there is nothing wrong with sports or the entertainment industries.. but .. puh-leez

millions of dollars for a few weeks work in a movie .. ?

I have trouble with the money issue.. maybe not ever having had much disposable income has colored my view.. but..
I think there is nothing wrong with having money... if it is well earned..

but by well earned I feel that mindfulness should be a part of they way you earn..

I know what you mean pudgy.. this is a hard one to explain.

:confused:

[Pam]

There was nothing wrong with Pudgy's post, it was just a convientant place to put a reminder about steering the conversation, without bumping the conversation up again. Pudgy's post was not the cause for my moderator's reminder. I'm sorry Pudgy, if you perceived me "writing in your margins" as a "no-no" :) It wasn't intended that way.

Back on the subject...
Money itself is not good or bad, no matter what you do for a living. Your relationship to money is what counts. That someone might think that taking in large amounts of money is good or bad for your spirituality is an illusion. Physical things like money, or what money can get you, cannot effect your spirituality. How you relate to them, can.

My point is money is not the topic here, but our relationship to money is.

[pudgybuster]

:) Thanks Pam and Saluna:

I was feeling awful -- I would never offend or hurt anyone on this board. I appreciate your responses.

Pudgy

[Joe100]

I’m new, so please forgive me coming in at such a developed stage in the discussion.

I (some time back) attended an open forum and – Hello - this subject came up. Also in attendance was a Cardiology Consultant (retired and ADE) with strong afterlife beliefs. He answered questions from his professional and personal point of view.

His job was saving lives, giving hope (sometimes false) making a living and prolonging existence.
Part of him wondered if he was doing Gods work or interfering. Is it not the case, we’re given a check-in/check-out existence? Where do we draw the line? “When we cut ourselves a scab forms and the bleeding stops”, he said. “Wounds that are meant to heal do so naturally” He was worried that any interfering, physical or spiritual may be viewed at a higher level with question. “Spiritual energy may be relevant until we get here only for us to understand again once we return. Charging for my service is the least of my worries – and should be yours!” with that I left

Sorry to be SO deep.

God Bless!

[pudgybuster]

Joe:
Wow -- thanks for the post. Anyone in the medical profession MUST have some extremely strong beliefs in either direction. Your particular cardiologist sounds like a very developed spiritual individual. His patients are very lucky. Welcome to the board :wave: by the way, we are glad to have you.

Hugs,
Jeannie (Pudgy)