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last updated by  Agnez 12 years, 2 months ago
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    Originally posted by RSLancastr
    Steve, thanks for the lengthy and interesting reply. I’m still not sure where I come down on the side of the “identify beforehand” theory, but it is an interesting one.

    And it is nice to see you back on the board again.



    If you re-read my post you would see that I have suggested surrendering identity information as part of a TESTING protocol.
    Tonight, in our sleep lab, I tested a psychic for a sleep disorder.
    As she was being wired up (a process of about 1 hr), she told the technician she couldn’t go on, there were 8 people around her who wanted to give her messages. These two, I can guarantee you, never met before. She then recited their names, told the tech her father was the chief spokesperson and then launched into a lengthy message from him concerning his car (identified correctly), her mother’s problem with the plumbing (after he had crossed) and about a dozen other things. I was there to observe the night and just left (it is 4:15 AM) as I was told she claims OBEs while asleep. We did EEGs, leg and facial EMGs as well as std respiratory, ECG, pulse oximetry and so on. I also taped her with a infra red video camera which is mounted in the ceiling with remote pan/tilt and focussing. After she was hooked up, I went in to introduce myself (I had never met her before either) and as we shook hands, she then started giving me messages from a variety of my family in spirit as well, including their names and so much info I was totally flawed. As the night progressed, I saw enough on the EEG, which when coupled with the video evidence, indicates that her OBEs may actually be occurring but I need next week to analyze this and discuss with others. My point is in this case the psychic became highly focussed and was able to peel off between the two of us 17 names of relatives in spirit, every single one of which were correct as was follow up info. This departs considerably from the kind of problems we see mediums such as JE has in the initial phase of a reading. It is clear to me now that this may be because of the large number of potential sitters, a hundred or more, each of whom could have ten or more in spirit……….a thousand potential consciousnesses, many no doubt with similar or the same names and causes of physical death.

    But with a one on one, I may be wrong in believing it is necessary to give up identity information and perhaps this is only a problem in large groups. I still would like to make this one phase of the next round of mediumship in-lab testing.

    Good night everybody (yawn)…..


    Well Steve, I gotta say: your job is certainly more interesting than mine! :)

    But with a one on one, I may be wrong in believing it is necessary to give up identity information and perhaps this is only a problem in large groups. I still would like to make this one phase of the next round of mediumship in-lab testing.

    Thanks for sharing that. I assume you’ll post your conclusions on this when you make them. I for one would be very interested.

    Thanks again,



    Originally posted by sgrenard
    As the night progressed, I saw enough on the EEG, which when coupled with the video evidence, indicates that her OBEs may actually be occurring but I need next week to analyze this and discuss with others.

    Can you share with us your analysis of this yet? Very interesting stuff……………..


    Can you share with us your analysis of this yet? Very interesting stuff……………..


    Prior studies done on alleged OBEers including the late Robert Monroe of OBE fame were done by Dr Charles T. Tart (see studies are on at the end of the Social Sciences Section and in the Miscellaneous Section.

    He and others do EEG or brain waves only. When they see a brain wave arousal or change in aplitude, in the absence of seizures, they credited such activity to possibly being evidence of an OBE. Since then we have learned that numerous other conditions can cause these arousals: leg movements during sleep called periodic limb movement disorder; restless leg syndrome;
    variations in breathing called hypopneas and obstructive sleep apneas; a decrease in oxygen saturation, if even only momentary; loud snores; some medications; tensing the muscles of the jaw.

    However all these factors which can cause EEG arousals like those associated with OBEs have not been controlled for in most of these studies. We do these routinely in our lab whose purpose is to diagnose and treat sleep apnea, leg movement and other sleep disorders. We also videotape the individual under infra red with a remote control pan/tilt/zoom in/zoom out camera mounted in the ceiling. We can see a nose hair on our monitors and tape everything done during sleep.

    This person, who was also psychic, claimed she has OBEs during sleep. She had several EEG arousals during the night which we could not account for by any of the aforementioned factors that could possibly cause them. In addition, when she had them, we also had a time coded videotape of her. She did not move a muscle. She was totally and completely still. In the morning when we tried to wake her we found she had sleep paralysis. She said later she could hear and see us but could neither answer or move in response to our trying to awaken her. This lasted 10 minutes.

    Sleep paralysis is usually ONLY associated with REM sleep and since there is often early morning REM it is not uncommon on awakening. However, we also had electrodes on her eye muscles as well as areas of her brain which indicate REM sleep. She was not in REM sleep. The paranormal explanation for recurrent isolated (from REM) prolonged sleep paralysis (RISP) is that whern you are OBE you cannot arouse until you are back in your body. I have always had a problem with this–I am from Missouri and I would have to see it in the absence of REM to believe it. I did. My feelings have been is that people with sleep paralysis are in REM. This lady definitely was not. While OBE she said she visited other parts of our facility and named another tech she did not meet or know was working there. She also described these other areas which she did not nor could’ve seen while asleep in a closed room under constant video surveillance (and we made a tape). When she comes back we will do a simple experiment and run a random picture generator and digital clock on a PC in a closed off area of the lab (secretary’s office) where neither the techs nor I can see whats on the screen and when. This would rule out mental telepathy or using us as “senders” which would be another experiment. In the AM we will ask her to tell us what she saw and at what time. The program we developed will generate a log of this information.

    More on this next April when she needs to come back for a follow-up study following weight reduction (endoscopic gastric bypass)surgery. She was in the lab by an outside referral for pre-op clearance and/or treatment prior to surgery for possible sleep apnea. Overweight people have this and it is a big risk factor for anesthesia and surgery which we can control if we know about it.

    (PS: She is not a professional medium and doesn’t want to be. She only gives what she sees and hears to relatives and friends. Without us asking or even tipping her we knew this, she read my technician and myself accurately (never met us before-heck didnt even know our names until that night). I was alerted to her when one of the receptionists called her the day before to confirm her appointment and she read the receptionist on the phone, also totally unsolicited, since she had this girl’s mom with her — who died ten years before. My tech had 8 losses in the last 2.5 years including her dad and she got them all plus mostly valid info from dad. I had quite a few losses over the decades but my son crossed over last January and she got him and the rest of my gang as well. Names and information all valid.

    More on this case as it unfolds. Dr. Gary Schwartz has been given a rundown and he has made numerous suggetsions for the next time we test her. One of his colleagues, Dr. Donald Watson, has provided me with the computer program which we are still perfecting to test her as well.


    Thank you so much for posting your analysis. This is fascinating. Was this the first time this gal had ever been awakened during an obe? Has she suffered from sleep paralysis before?

    P.S. Moderators – I know this is completely off topic – maybe it should be moved to a more suitable thread


    Thank you so much for posting your analysis. This is fascinating. Was this the first time this gal had ever been awakened during an obe? Has she suffered from sleep paralysis before?

    1. Was this the first time awakened during an OBE?

    Since this was her first sleep lab test, it was the first documented
    time. Any other reports of this cannot be confirmed but it was
    not discussed or brought up either.

    2. Has she suffered from sleep paralysis before?

    She indicated that this happens to her all the time.

    Again, sleep paralysis is normal physiology that occurs in people during, and I should say, just at and after coming out of REM
    sleep. This subject’s last REM period was two hours prior to the
    documented instance of sleep paralysis. She was in Stage 2
    and occasional stage 1 sleep during the period we tried to awake her. Sleep paralaysis is unknown as a normal byproduct of these stages of sleep. She was also tachycardic and had a enormously decreased cardiac amplitude on her ECG during this period. I didnt
    want to mention this before I had a cardiologist look at this. He
    has now, and cannot explain it.

    If Pam wants to move the three or four posts since my first repoprt on this to the Science Forum that’s okay with me.It started out as a somewhat skeptical argument and I plead
    guilty for seeing a hole to stick this case into on another thread.


    You mentioned Monroe.

    I visited the Monroe Institute and read about the Hemi-Sync tapes. Had to have, so I ran to the Best Buy site and found a good CD player. They had one like it in town – Total harmonic distortion of .08% (boom boxes normally have 10% – not even close) and a Signal-to-noise ratio of 80 dB (this is a middle range required for any GOOD headset.) Since the Hemi-Sync tapes work with Pink Noise and are effective due to their sound emanations, a good sound system captures each nuance.

    The first lesson I tried was the De-Tox CD. Talk about brain waves! What a trip! I never expected the symptoms and side-effects I got from that thing. Here’s what happened to me.

    During the actual listening of the CD DeTox:

    * During the relaxation stage, I got to the place where I could not close my mouth nor move my legs at all. Believe me, I tried; but no go. They were as if made of lead. My mind was completely aware of what was going on in my exterior environment – crystal clear – but I had no control over my limbs. Period. My roommate came in and I couldn’t even acknowledge his greeting. Talk about relaxed! More like being mummified but being completely aware of EVERYTHING. When they say to make sure you won’t be disturbed, they mean it. You can’t do anything about interruption anyway.

    * During the 11- 20 plus sleep stage, (of which I was till completely aware), my muscles gave the characteristic light spasms that someone exhibits when folks are actually asleep. I had muscle jerks of the feet and the hands at different times.

    * During the open alpha stage, I had a flush of warmth from head to foot as if I was totally aware of my complete body all at one time.

    *During the open alpha stage, I had tingling at various parts of my body, one, then another each in their own time. It was during this stage that I began to sweat. I could feel a trickle of sweat working down my forehead off my nose. It tickled, but I couldn’t do anything about it. Eventually, it went away. Another time at this stage, I think a fly landed on my neck. Same tickle, but again, I couldn’t move to shoosh it off. It also went away after a while.

    * During the post alpha stage (just past the part where the verbal instructions are at very low volume) I had what I would evaluate as a painful pressure in my brain, mostly on the right side — it was to the point where I heard my own groans a couple times. Subsequently, the pain went away and I woke later refreshed and very clear headed. I’m thinking the pain came from the sound waves that were stimulating cells that hadn’t been used before OR they were opening chi blocks that needed to be cleared for healing. I’m curious if the pain will lessen as each session goes by and my body continues to purify

    These symptoms occurred AFTER the CD session was completed.

    *AFter the complete CD was listened to, I had a copious amount of gas passed, loose bowels, effusive sweating, and a great deal of nausea. I believe these symptoms were the result of the purifying, the Detoxification my body was going through. Drenched with sweat, I had to take a shower. After, I had to drink Green tea to settle the stomach. I won’t listen to this Cd again after eating too much! Woof!

    *AFter completing the CD, my mind was crystal clear. I was able to relay to my roommate my experience with a doctor’s visit and my mother with such clarity, it shocked the both of us. It was as if I was actually in the reception room, seeing the pictures, hearing the nurses’s conversations all over again. I was able to recall exact conversations in detail without any emotional entanglements or ego overtures and could relay the progression of the office visit without missing a beat. That is not like my usual memory. I am detail oriented, but not usually to that degree.

    The nausea disappeared without regurgitation with help from the tea. The clarity of thought lasted throughout the night.

    I had trouble sleeping. I woke up approx. 6 times, yet this morning I’m refreshed and ready to go.

    That evening, we played cards. I didn’t have my eyeglasses on. For a couple hours I was able to see Bill’s suites he had laid out on the table. I am very nearsighted and this is not natural for me. As a couple hours passed, I had to lean in closer and closer to see his suites on the table top, eventually putting my eyeglasses back on.

    Another note. When I started the Detox CD, I had a pain in my right ankle. When I finished the CD, it was gone. I can’t attribute the loss of pain due to the CD, but I want to report the change since it did happen.

    I have three health tapes and on Transcendental tape which is supposed to help with meditation and mind expansion.
    If you or anyone else has used brain wave tapes, I’d love to hear your own personal experiences.
    Knowledge and Love. Kasin.



    Thanks for sharing your experience with these tapes. I havent actually searched the medical literature but what you experienced were auditory-provoked stimuli where there is a
    great deal of research being performed and published.

    I will have to look into these tapes further.



    Here’s their URl:

    The selection of tapes/CD is catagorized by effect, goal, or problem you’re working on.

    Happy hunting. I’m doing the Transcendental cd tonight.

    Pam B

    I moved this thread back into the “open” forum so that it can be “bumped” and replied to further.


    It’s been a while since we’ve had a discussion about OBEs (out of body experiences) and lucid dreaming (thinking you are awake when you are actually still dreaming). I’d love to hear any experiences of the people here.

    I’ll start with my first lucid dream. This happened quite a few years ago and was very short but I remember it as if it happened five minutes ago. I “awoke” in my bed and realized I had gone to sleep in my clothes so I got up to put on my pajamas when I noticed a small white pillow that sits on my bed floating about ten feet off the ground. Usually in a lucid dream there is something like this out of the ordinary that makes you realize you are still dreaming. I had been doing a lot of reading about lucid dreams and was excited to finally be having one. My reading had taught me that you have control over the elements of your lucid dream so I pointed my finger at the pillow floating in midair and said “Down!” It drifted slowly down to the floor. I was tickled that it work and then pointed at the pillow lying on the floor and said “Up!” It floated back up to its original position. At this point I made the cardinal error of getting over excited and woke myself up for real (I WAS wearing my pajamas and not my jeans.). In later lucid dreams I was able to keep my emotions in check and prolong the dream to do some exploring.

    My first OBE happened when I was about 3 years old. It was similar to an experience that JE describes in “One Last Time” where he was lying on the couch at home watching TV when suddenly he was outside looking at the house. Just as quickly he was back on the couch trying not to look freaked out. In my case I was riding in the back seat of a car with my family when suddenly I was above the car looking down. I don’t know if I told any one about it. I don’t think I did but I noticed recently that my Mom had written in my baby book around that time that I had a “very vivid imagination”. :D


    Scuba my mother would say the same thing about me. I have always had very vivid dream and nightmares as a child…typical sleep walker and so on. But it wasn’t intill I was 19-20 that i had my first experience with a lucid dream.

    I hope others share there Lucid and OBE experences!!!

    Scuba do you keep a dream journal and track how often you have OBE and Lucid dreams?


    I tried to keep a dream journal but my dream recall was very good and I found it was taking me forever to write up my dreams each day. So, despite my best intentions, that has fallen by the wayside.

    I haven’t had very many OBEs but I would very much like to have more. When I was a teenager I went through a period of time where almost every night when I would try to go to sleep I would get the telltale buzzing (to a very uncomfortable level) and sleep paralysis just before I would fall asleep. At the time I didn’t know what it was and it annoyed me. I would fight it every way I knew how and eventually it stopped happening. Now that I know what it was I wish it would come back!:D

    I find a strong correlation between regular meditation and focusing on lucid dreams to actually having the lucid dreams. When I let my meditation practice slip I rarely have them. Lately I’ve had lots of obligations that have taken my attention away from my metaphysics and I can really tell a difference. As I was cleaning out a closet yesterday I ran across an article about inducing lucid dreaming that I had used when I first found out about the concept. It’s time to re-read the article and get started again.:reader:


    Well it makes me feel good to hear that you faught it at the beginning too. I always regret it too afterwards especially this last time when that lady spoke to me….I was determined to stay calm and not fight it….however I my father in law and a close friend made me think that my guide wanted to contact me and when I found out it was a spirit it came to a shock and it was not what I expected….at all.

    Just gets to me of all the spirits to come to me it would be a stranger rather then a loved one. Oh well.

    It has been a long time since I had a lucid dream!!! However I know that I am sleeping almost every night I dream on a rare occasion i don’t but I don’t tend to change my dreams but just go with the flow of things….however if I don’t like what happen in the part of the dream I find myself stopping the dream and kind of rewinding it and redoing it to my satisfaction. LOL I do that often however it really isn’t the same as a lucid dream at least I am pretty sure.

    To me a lucid dream is seeing from your own eyes. Where that I don’t know what you would call that…do you do that often?


    As I said I haven’t been devoting myself to my meditation or dream work recently so I’m only having a few brief intervals of lucid dreams per week now. When I was taking classes in meditation and Reiki I was having my most spectacular (to me) lucid dreams. I want to get back to that.

    I think “re-winding” a dream requires some level of lucidity but it’s not the classic lucid dream. To me a lucid dream is when my level of self-awareness goes from very low to extremely high in an instant. It’s like the dream was two dimensional and suddenly it’s three dimensional. I get a sense of the space around me. The dream becomes a very concrete experience. For example in my first lucid dream I was aware I had gone to bed in my clothes because I felt the rough texture of my blue jeans with my fingers. I don’t remember ever dreaming about texture in a normal dream.

    Once I have that awareness I can decide what to do. I have to work to stay lucid otherwise I will just fade back into low awareness again and continue in a normal dream. I’ve attempted to completely change the scene when I become lucid but have had limited success. I once became lucid while dreaming of being in a stairway and I decided to switch scenes to be on a boat in the Caribbean. I did manage to create the boat scene but it was a little odd and I wasn’t able to stay lucid long enough to enjoy my “vacation”. :D

    I’ve only had one lucid dream where I encountered another lucid being. Usually any people I meet while lucid seem to be sleep walking and are difficult to engage in conversation. Maybe they are real people who are in a normal dream. There are a variety of theories about what is actually taking place (and where). It’s all so cool and magical!

    I posted about meeting the lucid being here several years ago. I thought at the time it might have been a guide. I haven’t had any confirmation of that and haven’t run into him again. Maybe soon!

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