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    I couldn’t give a flyin fig about “converting” anybody to any belief system. My goal in striving for perfection ONLY pertains to the step in the process where you lay the groundwork for all that comes after it.

    ONLY IN THIS STEP, do I unequivocally believe that, unless this step is taken to ensure that the information is as correct as one can make it ,at least with what knowledge we possess at this point in time, we are twirling at windmills in a hit and miss fashion.

    Since my areas of interest and experience lie in Astrology and Numerology, it’s in these two areas that I’m mainly talking about.If you don’t start with a correctly erected birth chart, or if you don’t start from the beginning with a correct numerology chart, you really are only working with intuition at best, guessing at the worst. If either chart is calculated using erroneous information, it’s not a legitimate tool at all. You might as well stare into a glass of water and make predictions.

    And what motivates me to not settle for less is not to impress, or find approval from others. On the contrary, if that’s been what gives me the passion for this seeking, I would have quit a long time ago ! I’m too old to let that be my barometer, believe me!

    However, that’s not to say that I don’t not want to be a role model for what having the opportunity to find the beauty and growth that being in metaphysics brings to a person. But if I fluff off the basics as being non-important ,because, hey anybody can make up stuff and say, “well, you know how those Pisces can be! “Or, “well, what do you expect…they’re a Sagittarian Life Path 8?” I don’t go out looking for a fight over my beliefs, or I certainly don’t start off every introduction, “How do you do? This is what I believe…wait, unless you won’t like me if I do!”

    But let’s face it.There’s still a lot of murkiness out there in the field of Astrology and Numerology, mainly because their starting point involves taking data, that’s either correct or incorrect, mathematically figuring it out and coming to what should be an undisputed answer. By this I mean a workable, accurate chart.

    Once you get to that answer, it’s at this point that I totally agree with you guys. That’s when intuition kicks in, as well as subjective opinions about what it all means and what one should do with its lessons.

    And you’re also correct , I think, to say, well why do you need a chart of any kind at all? Just use your intuition and inner voice.
    Nothin wrong with that either. But me, I prefer a written plan.

    Pam, just the few examples you gave of how mistakes can be made, (mispelling of names, a mix-up in a birth time.) That so encapsulates the driving problem for me in my quest to do it right or not at all.

    Also, in regards to the rules of Astrology never changing…well, I guess I’d have to say that I hope how we interpret what we know in reading a chart will evolve in both sophistication and sympathetic understanding of each other and ourselves. And I hope, but don’t believe in my lifetime, that we’ll discover the absolute correct process to arrive at a TRUE CHART, especially for Astrology and possibly for Numerology. And this last paragraph really , in a nutshell,encapsulates my dilemma and the impetus for writing all things I’ve written up to this point.

    Believe me, be glad it doesn’t pose a problem for you if all this doesn’t seem important in the scheme of things. It’s troubled me for at least the last 10 years!

    And ,I know, it’s my lesson to work out. Thanks for sharing, everyone!



    Originally posted by Irish140
    Pam, just the few examples you gave of how mistakes can be made, (mispelling of names, a mix-up in a birth time.) That so encapsulates the driving problem for me in my quest to do it right or not at all.

    I’m about to say one of those things I say that always gets me into trouble or just irritates the crap out of people. I think I’ll do it, anyway.

    You can’t do it right. No one can.

    Wow, how’s THAT for a unilateral blanket statement!

    This could get to be a really great discussion about process if we all don’t get mad and take our marbles and go home.

    This is what I think might happen. You get a great intuitive who does gifted work. They use some tool, like numerology. But they think it is about the numbers instead of about them. Like, what if John taught that all visions of wiping a slate clean meant you should move on? Or all visions of certain colors of roses had certain messages attached? But he wouldn’t because my symbols and yours and his will be different.

    Five doesn’t mean anything. Neither does 33, anymore than the King of Pentacles means something. We have just come to attach meanings to the things we create and so the other side folks use the symbols to talk to us.

    I like doing Tarot. I like it better than numbers because there are more symbols and connections and flexibility. But it would work as well if I took blank cards and drew words on them at random.

    And none of this is about convincing the public. You can’t do that, either. People get it or they don’t.

    (And, yes, I know I am irritating. I always say I don’t mean to be, it’s apparently genetic. )

    Anyway, it can’t be about the tools, it has to be about the process or it doesn’t make sense. And the process is what will always be essentially the same, I think.

    Maybe we need to talk more about how it works instead of what we work with. Then, ALL our tools will always work.


    Pam B

    Theo, then I’m irritating too, because I agree 100% with everything you say. But I don’t think that we can apply even our own statements in a blanket way.

    People outside of the new age movement tend to lump all astrologers, card readers and mediums into one group of people, and assume that we all have the same thinking traits and world views. We don’t. Different strokes for different folks. Astrology and numerology seems to be in their own silos when it comes to scrying.

    Astrology used to be a generally accepted as a science, and it’s still considered as such by those who practice it, as Irish stated earlier in the thread. It does use hard and fast rules, with the planets being in fixed positions measured to the fractions of degrees, the movement of those planets being absolutely predictable. You could theoretically do one reading for a person, that would last them their entire life because the birth moment does not change, and the position of the planets at that moment are written in stone.

    The differences in other scrying tools are probably obvious to anyone who belongs to this part of the group, in that the tools themselves are unpredictable. The throw of rune stones, the dealing of tarot cards, the tea leaves, etc. are never predictable and can change from reading to reading.

    My point in highlighting the differences, is that there are different kinds of people, who think differently, and have different needs in navigating and arranging their world. Some people prefer relying on the left side of the brain dominantly. They see the world in the black and white. Things either are, or they aren’t. There are no shades of gray. They tend to not to be able to tolerate much ambiguity. I think this is the type of person who prefers astrology or numerology. You have to “know” what the symbols mean, and they all mean the same thing to every reader (approximately.) Sign posts and meanings are fixed and while the blend of signposts have to be interpreted, there is very little room for ambiguity in what each sign post means on it’s own.

    Then there are the right brain dominates, who shun logic in favor of what their emotions and feelings tell them. They see the world in many shades of grays from black to white. To them, a thing can be black and white at the same time, it doesn’t have to be either/or. They tend not to tolerate absolutes, seeing the world as an ever changing and shifting rubic’s cube. I think this is the person who prefers tarot, runes, tea leaves, crystal gazing and mediumship because they require interpretation at the emotional and intuitive level. To suggest that a card or a symbol should have the same meaning to all readers would make a tarot lover extremely nervous, or to call the reading a “science” would probably make them shiver. Ambiguity is something these people are very comfortable with, because in their mind, they can embrace the unknowable as a thing of beauty in itself, and can even explain it’s purpose.

    Neither type is right or wrong, and neither one is better than the other. Each brings their own unique strengths to the table. Just the necessary differences to bring balance into our world :)


    I agree with almost all of what both of you stated. Really ,I do.
    Astrology and Numerology ARE different areas of metaphysics…in that the basis for using them starts with black and white mathematical deductions. Astrology is a companion science to Astronomy…although it’s the relation we only talk about in the back rooms in whispers.

    But when you choose either one of these areas as one that interests you, be aware that there ARE…have to be…hard and fast rules of calculation. There are no emotions involved with mathematics…it is what it is. And the more we move toward agreeing what is and isn’t correct in arriving at our starting point, meaning the chart of both studies, the simpler our job is to move on to the meat of our purpose…interpretation and implementation. But this first step, this first process HAS to have a form, a system, some uniformly accepted way to begin the process…you avoid chaos and you lead to keeping it simple, which is place where the best intuitive messages and guidances come from.

    In the area of Astrology, we have to respect that aspect of it. If your Natal Chart is incorrect because it used the wrong data, it’s useless as a tool of any kind. It’s the foundation you base everything on from the beginning . And if it becomes your intuitive tool of choice, you’ve got to follow some sort of set of rules. I am only referring here to the beginning process. How one reads the chart is free-form, as it should be.

    I’ve got a beautiful 7 inch Russian crystal ball, three sets of Tarot cards wrapped in their silk covering and resting in their wooden boxes, astro dice…all wonderful tools of the trade. And I agree with what Theo said…these are all basically fancy trappings for unleashing psychic potential. But there are no mathematical steps that need to be taken to use these processes. So there is no need for hard and fast rules as the first step in using them.

    But that’s just not true in Astrology. If you commit to using this form, you have a responsibility to accept the fact that there are scientific rules and regulations that go along with it. And if you like and need absolute frreedom of expression in your intuitive quest, this area is not for you. It’s probably my Virgo Moon that requires a plan, a form, a strive for perfection in the little minute details that sort of frustrate some of you who live in the emotional world. I don’t know any of your birth data, Theo, so I wouldn’t know for sure how you see this differently. But if you think I’m totally without any emotion or artistic compulsion, know that I have four planets in Pisces, so I can fully appreciate the ability to go on blind naked intuition and feelings!

    It’s wonderful to be able to share thoughts and experiences with all of you. We learn so much from each other! We’re very lucky.



    Originally posted by Irish140
    I don’t know any of your birth data, Theo, so I wouldn’t know for sure how you see this differently. But if you think I’m totally without any emotion or artistic compulsion, know that I have four planets in Pisces, so I can fully appreciate the ability to go on blind naked intuition and feelings!

    Sheesh! I hate it when I write a whole post and get thrown off AOL before I can send it! So, quick, I want to say….I could never think you weren’t intuitive and creative and certainly I can’t imagine thinking you are without emotion!!

    So, now I will send this and see if I can respond to other stuff!



    Originally posted by Pam
    Astrology used to be a generally accepted as a science, and it’s still considered as such by those who practice it, as Irish stated earlier in the thread. It does use hard and fast rules, with the planets being in fixed positions measured to the fractions of degrees, the movement of those planets being absolutely predictable. You could theoretically do one reading for a person, that would last them their entire life because the birth moment does not change, and the position of the planets at that moment are written in stone.

    I hear you, I just haven’t found this to be true in my experience. There’s a huge debate in the astrology community about when, exactly, the Age of Aquarius starts. Or did start or will depending on who you ask.

    If it were mathematical, then you would never need an astrologer, you could put all the data into a computer and pull out the pefect reading every time.

    I also like the idea of tools which is why I am using cards, because they have actual meanings, because it takes me further out of the loop, gives “them” more access. And I admit, I would be delighted to have Irish’s crystal ball.


    (There’s always a “but” !!)

    I am very seriously suggesting that all of our tools are completely meaningless and that all these processes that reveal Truth are exactly the same process. Like, um….rain and snow and hail and fog are all the same process, it is only exposure to different physical conditions that causes them to be different from one another, but they are actually the same thing: water coming from the sky to the earth.

    Are we all saying the same thing and am I being dense?

    Theo<--where dense is always a possibility!


    In my menopause-fogged brain, I think of ideas I want to share and then they’re gone before I can type them down.

    You, on the other hand, probably typed great gobs of genius thoughts only to have AOL lose them before you can punch SEND and on their way to us…somewhere the Zen/ethereal/spirit-filled gods are laughing.

    Your words reminded me of when I white-knuckled it in an airplane from Michigan to Las Vegas to attend my first American Federation of Astrologers convention, about 15-20 years ago. Boy, was I excited about being surrounded with nothing but like-minded people who would come together and spew nothing but white light and astro love on each other. HA!!!! Something was flying all right but it was messier than love.

    I’m sitting in this lecture room with about 30 people, and there’s a number of them, about 5 I’d say, who were each trying to out-astrologer each other. Example: “My way’s the right way.” “I only use the 90-degree dial.” “I would only have surgery when the Moon is void of course.” Believe me, as the voices escalated, it was turning into a real bitch fight and getting totally out of control. I stood up and said, “I did NOT fly nauseausly all the way across the country to listen to THIS! Can we please get back to the purpose of being here? Sharing and learning without the ego-fest?” Please note that the majority there in that room DID agree with me, though.

    I guess even back then, Astrologers as a group couldn’t agree on even the simplest goal of recognizing that we each were dependent on the other to stand as good examples of what our beliefs and views represented to the outside world . And when you’re drawn to Astrology, there IS something inside you that wants the subject to become respected and considered legitimate. Because, with that respect and legitimacy comes more scientific opportunity for in-depth study and research.

    That’s why “good enough” isn’t good enough for me. And why I have more questions than answers. Aren’t you glad, Theo, that you’re not drawn to it?

    But we’re still back to the fact that the basis for great astrology is
    mathematical. The problems come about because we can’t even agree on a math system that stands the test of time ,is prove-able, and works! (Please see my posts about INCARN and spiritual birth times as opposed to first-breath birth times in Paige’s thread.)

    I think I’ll just go talk to my crystal ball.


    Pam B

    Cindy what a horrible experience. I can imagine how deflated you felt after that experience. I’ve had similar ones, where my expectations exceeded the actual experience. Bummer!

    My 2.5 cents is, for whatever it’s really worth is….

    …all of these labels are of human construct. If Mars has an energy and possibly a concousness of it’s own, do we really think Mars is up there saying to itself “Sheeesh, I’m so misunderstood. If only those “X” number of humans would get it “right” like those “Y” number of humans got it right, then I would feel more validated”.

    We’re the ones that have to know exactly when the Aquarian Age starts. I doubt that the planets care one way or another, or for that matter, all of the ascended masters and the Creator. In my opinion, knowing or anticipating the exact moment that it comes isn’t what’s important. What we do when it comes, is.

    Cindy, isn’t it possible that the “aquarian age” has started for some, (based on the meaning and implications of the interpretation of such an alignment, not the actual alignment itself) and that for others it won’t start for another 1000 years? I’m not talking specifics, I’m talking in terms of the higher purpose of such alignments. Couldn’t it be personalized, based on the alignment of the planets for each person?

    I guess I still can’t let go of the need for everyone to do it the same way. Let’s say I take up astrology and make conclusions about a person’s personality traits, life purpose, possible challenges and opportunties, and I feel I’m guided by my spirit guides when I do those things….and I’m happy with it, and so are the people I create charts for….then why should you be upset if I do it differently than you do? If it works for me, is it “wrong”?


    I feel like I have opened a whole can of worms with my question about birth and adopted names. I am also embarrassed to say this, but, you guys lost me a long time ago on this one. :goofy: Sorry. :o




    I can add a couple of my thoughts to your questions. Very simply put, if you and I both read the same chart, or for that matter, say Sandy Anastasi jumped in and she read that same chart, too…you would ( I would) expect it to be 3 completely different takes on the same person, with probably a lot of very similar comments thrown in as well. But that’s as it should be with interpretation.

    Different, because we 3 are different. You might look at it from a soul growth issue.

    I might come from the practical end in how it can help you in your personal life with your job, your kids, your money.

    Sandy ,might see something in both areas…either because it just jumps out at her because she’s having a better day than you or me, or she picks something up intuitively and throws those tidbits in.

    Maybe the person is more compatible to begin with , with one or the other of us. We have planets alike. Our backrounds are alike and so we have that environmental thing in common.

    But the one thing all three of us should agree on is the chart we agree is the correct one from which to start with in the first place.

    Say the person has the time right off the birth certificate. We know that that isn’t even 100% fail-proof. Maybe Sandy intuitively feels she should take 20 minutes off. (I’m sure she’d do what’s called some rectification in there as well.)

    You’d use the stated birth time and be very comfortable with it.

    I on the other hand, would not trust that using that birth time will yield a correct chart. (once again, it’s the INCARN theory.)

    See how just the three of us , if we descended on this poor person with our outlooks, thoughts, and opinions…well, hell…
    who wouldn’t be confused? It’s this step, this beginning point that weakens Astrology to the world in general. That bothers me. It might not bother others. But me, I want a definitive answer. I don’t think I’ll get one in my lifetime.

    Another point that I wanted to make.

    A LOT of confusion is caused because when astrologers talk about someone’s chart or counsels a client, they use words and phrases, unintentionally, that gives the person the idea that :

    You’ve got a Mars transit, and Mars is squaring Uranus touching off your Saturn…good grief…drive carefully for the next week! Say that your Mars is in Gemini and transiting Uranus is in Pisces,
    (it is actually!) and your Saturn is Gemini as well…well don’t drink and drive, make sure you watch your medication intake if you’re on the road, and watch out you don’t hurt your feet or toes.

    It sounds from the astrologer that those pesky planets are causing these things to happen. NO.NO.NO. What happens is that when planets are in certain signs or are in certain angles from each other, whether it’s 30, 60, 90, 120 degrees…they set up certain vibrations with each other and it shows itself to us on earth. But they don’t MAKE things happen…they REFLECT what is happening. Free will is always in play. It’s just easier for astrologers to start using the words that when such and such is happening this is how it will react with you. But in truth, I feel, that whenever or whatever is happening in your life, the planets are just the reflection of your own day to day exsistence.

    You know how John, when he’s reading someone and will tell information to the person , but he’ll put it in the form of a question…”who’s the P?
    Who’s got a backround in public office?” He knows he’s actually telling them something. A person who won’t or doesn’t want to believe in his work will take this and say “Look, he’s guessing.He has to ask.”

    Not true at all. It’s his way of focusing and imparting his information. Keeping in some sort of order in his mind . He already knows what he’s telling them is what he wants to say. Whether they agree with the info on the spot is beside the point. He’s already put it out there…it’s just that it’s in the form of a question…but it’s not really…not to him.

    My point is that words do sound different to different people. Astrologers really don’t stop and think how it’s coming out and affecting another’s opinion. The planets don’t cause anything.But they’re a mirror to activities to everything alive on earth.

    About the Aquarius thing. I’ve got to think about that one a bit.
    Imagine…me without a comeback!


    maria V

    This has been a fascinating and informative thread guys. I’m really learning so much about myself simply by reading your different points of view.

    Irish I have a question – is the INCARN theory the same as prenatal astrology?

    I definitely agree with you about the way some astrologers go about interpreting their information to the client. I think it goes back to what JE kept talking about at the workshop – EGO. In my opinion it is irresponsible for an astrologer to make a matter of fact statment to any client. That completely takes away from what the whole point of having a consultation is:

    To understand the blueprint of your life so that you are aware of your strengths and weaknesses, thus giving you the opportunity to CHANGE what you want to based on the trends of energy surrounding your life.

    A person can have a “tendency” to be explosive and angry, but with the right astrologer showing them the way out of this possible manifestation (maybe through an easy aspect in the natal chart) the beauty of astrology is that the person never has to manifest this “tendency”.

    And any astrologer who claims that the person is going to DEFINITELY be angry and explosive in their relationships is not doing anything to help the client.

    This brings me to another point I want to make about astrology that hasn’t been mentioned yet. IMO, more than any other tool, astrology has a beautiful blending of psychology inherent to it. This is what drew me to the study in the first place. You really can help a person make postive life changes and decisions. It’s not only a scrying tool, it’s a counseling tool.

    It makes me wonder Irish, about all the different “types” of astrology that trouble you so much. Yes it’s true that there is western astrology, vedic astrology, pre-natal astrology, psychological astrology, and probably many other “schools of thought” out there that I’m unaware of. But, think about it this way:

    A psychologist may be trained in cognitive theory, freudian theory, or countless others in their education and use their methods of training to heal a client. They ALL have flaws yet they also ALL have some validity to them. What it comes down to is personal choice. It’s up to the client to decide what form of therapy they believe will be most helpful to their situation. I believe the same to be true with astrology. THe client will be “drawn” to the type of astrology (western, vedic, etc…) that they believe will be most helpful to them.

    I also think the same is true with the STUDENTS of astrology. We are drawn to one over the other for a reason.

    When there is a destination that you have to drive to and you get 5 different people giving you what they believe is the “best route” does it really matter which one you take if they all get you to the same destination?

    Pam, you said this in one of your posts:
    You could theoretically do one reading for a person, that would last them their entire life because the birth moment does not change, and the position of the planets at that moment are written in stone.

    I just wanted to mention that yes, the postion of the planets are “written in stone” but that wouldn’t mean that one reading would last a lifetime because the transiting planets need to be considered as well (that is where the planets are today placed against where they were at birth). The possibilities in astrology are endless and what is written in stone is the person’s inherent talents, abilities and weaknesses not the outcome of them.

    Irish, I also wanted to ask you what you think about the validity of a solar chart would be. You seem to have a high need for precision and since a solar chart only accounts for the day of birth I would like to know what you think about this. In my beginning astrology classes, we learned how to interpret a person’s horoscope right out of the ephemeris without any additional information. I was surprised at how much information you can get simply from knowing about the planetary line-up on the date of birth. Of course it can’t be as detailed and in-depth as a natal chart, but I do believe you can give a great overview to a client about their life simply by using this method.

    Once again, thank you all for taking the time to post your thoughtful opinions on this subject. It is wonderful to share this exchange with you all. And also, I know that sometimes in “talking online” what someone writes is sometimes taken the wrong way. I want you all to know that for me, everything I post is coming from one place – my desire to learn more about the subject and myself as well as helping others learn more about something that I believe can help make their lives more fulfilling and meaningful.

    Love to all,

    :daisy: :)



    If you are just starting to study astrology, I’ve got to tell you how impressed I am with your grasp on this subject.

    The pre-natal chart, or conception chart is one drawn up for the moment of conception. Since this time is only speculative it’s hard to say what effect it has on any individual. It’s ,in a nutshell, the placement of the Sun, Moon, and planets when a person is conceived. It’s not the same as an INCARN chart. That one is based on when the spirit enters the baby’s body, almost always before birth when the mother is in labor. The conception chart is supposed to show how people think or “conceive” of things…the cerebral side of any human being.

    In order to find such a speculative time, the astrologer believes that at or near the time of conception, the Moon must be in conjunction or opposition to whatever the Natal Ascendant turns out to be. And the conception Ascendant must be in conjunction or opposition to whatever the Natal Moon turns out to be.There have been studies done, and disagreements occur over whether
    or not these interchanges have to be exact in degree or not…but the debate continues with astrologers who have the fortitude and stamina to delve in to it. The conception chart differs from INCARN in that it is supposed to be used ALONG WITH the Natal chart. Whereas the INCARN chart aspires to REPLACE the natal chart.

    And you are just so,so right about Astrology being a wonderful tool for psychological profiling, study, and examination. I don’t understand people who AREN’T curious enough about themselves and others that they want to use any means available to excercise their brains by analyzing the heck out of everything. But , that’s just my Virgo moon excitedly talking again! I must boor the poop out of some people…know what I mean?

    As far as the solar chart…there’s a couple ways to do even this chart.One is you take the degree of your sun sign, put it on the ascendant or first house, place that degree on all remaining 11 houses, and then write in the planets from the day you were born. Or you can take your birthdate, type in noon for that day, which will put your sun at the top of your chart and read it that way. I prefer putting the sun on the first, that’s the way they draw up each 12 charts for the newspaper and magazine columns you read about. That’s why, if you know your rising sign, that’s really the sign you should read in these columns. It will come a little closer in hitting you personally.

    When I did my radio program, ,I would have my ephemeris right there, (that’s a book with the placements for each day of the year for every century) and believe me you can tell quite a bit just by looking at those guys, if you know where the planets are right now and compare the two in your head. I learned to think very fast on my feet doing it that way.

    You know, astrology is a very adult version of where’s Waldo …
    it’s very simple really , if you can just get through the maze!

    I used to literally get sick to my stomach when I was first learning everything. I tried to take it all in and just when I thougt I was getting it, my mind went blank and I felt like I needed a sugar fix or something!

    You’re going to make a wonderful addition to our family of astrologers, I just feel it.


    And Pam,

    Regarding the Aquarian age, because the constellations have invisible, maybe even over-lapping boundaries, there is disagreement as to just where the cusp is for the starting point of the Aqaurian Age from the Piscean Age. Some believe it’s starting now, and that’s not too hard to swallow because of our amazing scientific advancements in computers and space travel.

    Sidereal astrologers believe it’s still much further into our future…2157A.D. or 2374 A.D.

    I’ll just be happy to wake up tomorrow morning.



    Originally posted by Irish140
    Regarding the Aquarian age, because the constellations have invisible, maybe even over-lapping boundaries, there is disagreement as to just where the cusp is for the starting point of the Aqaurian Age from the Piscean Age.

    That would only be one set of the issue. Another is: does it start when the constellation appears over the horizon or when it is firmly above the horizon? I once saw a discussion of this issue between two astrologers that went on for more than three-hundred posts. But I didn’t understand a bit of it and still don’t.

    Probably what makes it scientific, you can’t get two scientists to agree about much that is theoretical either!




    Isn’t each age, like a thousand years long? I’m not sure.

    You have finally found an astrological subject I feel very benign about…I know, I can’t believe it either.

    How can some people be bored with life, though, when there are so many interesting questions concerning what’s “out there” and
    what’s “in here” as well?

    Is this curiosity trait one that all of us here share and recognize in each other?

    Very possible.



    Originally posted by Irish140

    Isn’t each age, like a thousand years long? I’m not sure.

    You have finally found an astrological subject I feel very benign about…I know, I can’t believe it either.


    I don’t know about the thousand year thing, sounds familiar, though. The only reason I ever heard of this issue is because some pope or other apparently had a vision about the coming of the spiritual age and that it would follow this era of war and it’s all supposed to be about the Age of Aquarius. (And his vision was a thousand of one followed by a thousand of the other.) But I lost my notes about which pope it was or where it was published and no one on the Catholic boards will talk about it.

    Anyway, that’s when I waded through the whole Aquarian bruhaha.


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